<?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8'?><?xml-stylesheet href="http://www.blogger.com/styles/atom.css" type="text/css"?><feed xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom' xmlns:openSearch='http://a9.com/-/spec/opensearchrss/1.0/' xmlns:georss='http://www.georss.org/georss' xmlns:gd='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005' xmlns:thr='http://purl.org/syndication/thread/1.0'><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012825</id><updated>2011-12-17T07:30:00.004-08:00</updated><category term='show'/><category term='sculpture'/><category term='universalism'/><category term='Myth'/><category term='liberal'/><category term='finances'/><category term='emergent'/><category term='Game'/><category term='theology'/><category term='Scales'/><category term='rent'/><category term='doctrine'/><category term='C.S. Lewis'/><category term='art'/><category term='Words'/><category term='morals'/><category term='debate'/><category term='Interpretation'/><category term='brownish liquid'/><category term='perception'/><category term='Video project'/><category term='Tom Cruise'/><category term='shadow of the collosus'/><category term='Multiple variables'/><category term='College'/><category term='Source'/><category term='Bible'/><category term='Horus'/><category term='&quot;Love Wins&quot;'/><category term='kirkland'/><category term='Faith'/><category term='post modern'/><category term='Jesus'/><category term='&quot;Rob Bell&quot;'/><category term='work'/><category term='balance'/><category term='kids'/><category term='future'/><category term='narrative'/><category term='story'/><category term='jonathan haidt'/><category term='logic'/><category term='Examiner'/><category term='MacDonald'/><category term='language'/><category term='virgin black'/><category term='Exercise'/><category term='Metal'/><category term='relativism'/><category term='flying spaghetti monster'/><category term='movie'/><category term='game design'/><category term='Nietzche'/><category term='Professor'/><category term='the ex'/><category term='belief'/><category term='Demon Hunter'/><category term='suicide'/><category term='fun'/><category term='plan changes'/><category term='Lewis'/><category term='moving'/><category term='gallery'/><category term='education'/><category term='monkeys'/><category term='some'/><category term='beach'/><category term='P-90X'/><category term='marriage'/><category term='all'/><category term='Hypocrite'/><category term='forum'/><category term='conservative'/><category term='lazy'/><category term='sex'/><category term='Zeitgeist'/><category term='Poetry'/><category term='Shermer'/><category term='unitarianism'/><category term='funeral'/><category term='atheist'/><category term='math'/><category term='privilege'/><category term='originality'/><category term='mortgage'/><category term='Music'/><category term='Skepticism'/><category term='experience'/><category term='games'/><category term='atheism'/><category term='Agnostic'/><category term='weekend'/><category term='chart'/><category term='obedience'/><category term='big dream'/><category term='diagram'/><category term='food'/><category term='Balrog'/><category term='rationalizing'/><category term='Christianity'/><category term='apologetics'/><category term='Consensus'/><category term='Paul'/><category term='morality'/><title type='text'>Confessions of a Quirky Christian Artist</title><subtitle type='html'>The real-time testimony of an (trying to be)honest guy who loves God</subtitle><link rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#feed' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default?max-results=100'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/'/><link rel='hub' href='http://pubsubhubbub.appspot.com/'/><link rel='next' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default?start-index=101&amp;max-results=100'/><author><name>Joshua C. Foreman</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/05522491775240272109</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='26' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_6UY1NhoIgIQ/SA_bxn4x_FI/AAAAAAAAACo/QWknsElPZN4/S220/Josh-Haricut05s.jpg'/></author><generator version='7.00' uri='http://www.blogger.com'>Blogger</generator><openSearch:totalResults>253</openSearch:totalResults><openSearch:startIndex>1</openSearch:startIndex><openSearch:itemsPerPage>100</openSearch:itemsPerPage><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012825.post-7691005234514477500</id><published>2011-09-02T12:36:00.000-07:00</published><updated>2011-09-02T12:50:27.640-07:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='C.S. Lewis'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='fun'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='game design'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='post modern'/><title type='text'>C.S. Lewis and Philosophy of Game Design</title><content type='html'>&lt;span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; "&gt;&lt;div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; margin-top: 8px; margin-right: 8px; margin-bottom: 8px; margin-left: 8px; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "&gt;&lt;p&gt;“&lt;em&gt;Perhaps, in the nature of things, analytical understanding must always be a basilisk which kills what it sees and only sees by killing.&lt;/em&gt;”&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;C.S. Lewis ~ The Abolition of Man&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;____________&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I’ve been interested by a pattern that I’ve noticed on Gamasutra and a few other game design related sites.  Almost every time an article or blog is posted that gets into the psychology of gaming and game design there will be a comment or two along the lines of:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;“You can’t turn art into a system of numbers and metrics!  You are killing the FUN in games when you analyze them like this!  Don’t deconstruct the magic that makes games what they are!”&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Personally, these right-brained knee-jerk responses don’t really appeal to me.  They usually strike me as sad, inarticulate slippery-slope arguments.  But I’m also philosophically opposed to dismissing ideas out-of-hand.  I prefer the Hegelian method of searching out the thesis/antithesis and hashing out a synthesis whenever possible.   That’s why I love bouncing between Nietzsche and C.S. Lewis.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img src="http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/cs_lewis-heretic.jpg" _mce_src="http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/cs_lewis-heretic.jpg" alt="C.S. Lewis" width="314" height="426" style="border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; " /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Which brings me to my point.  Being a dominantly right-brained individual myself, I sympathize with what these naysayers are pointing at.  And since I’ve not seen a well articulated argument from them, when I came across these passages from C.S. Lewis’ book &lt;span _mce_style="text-decoration: underline;" style="text-decoration: underline; "&gt;The Abolition of Man&lt;/span&gt;, they jumped out at me as possible conscripts for their position.  The book itself is, of course, not about game design at all, but the theme does speak directly to this debate about how the analysis of a thing (Such as fun) can kill it.  At least for the artists.  Consider this passage as it relates to metrics or any specific psychological understanding of fun.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;“&lt;em&gt;Now I take it that when we understand a thing analytically and then dominate and use it for our own convenience, we reduce it to the level of `Nature' in the sense that we suspend our judgments of value about it, ignore its final cause (if any), and treat it in terms of quantity. This repression of elements in what would otherwise be our total reaction to it is sometimes very noticeable and even painful: something has to be overcome before we can cut up a dead man or a live animal in a dissecting room. These objects resist the movement of the mind whereby we thrust them into the world of mere Nature. But in other instances too, a similar price is exacted for our analytical knowledge and manipulative power, even if we have ceased to count it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;We do not look at trees either as Dryads or as beautiful objects while we cut them into beams: the first man who did so may have felt the price keenly, and the bleeding trees in Virgil and Spenser may be far-off echoes of that primeval sense of impiety. The stars lost their divinity as astronomy developed, and the Dying God has no place in chemical agriculture. To many, no doubt, this process is simply the gradual discovery that the real world is different from what we expected, and the old opposition to Galileo or to `body-snatchers' is simply obscurantism. But that is not the whole story. It is not the greatest of modern scientists who feel most sure that the object, stripped of its qualitative properties and reduced to mere quantity, is wholly real. Little scientists, and little unscientific followers of science, may think so. The great minds know very well that the object, so treated, is an artificial abstraction, that something of its reality has been lost.&lt;/em&gt;”&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This seems to me like a quintessential argument against the way many in our industry like to view games as elaborate &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber" _mce_href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber"&gt;Skinner Boxes&lt;/a&gt;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Skinner_box_scheme_01.png/300px-Skinner_box_scheme_01.png" _mce_src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Skinner_box_scheme_01.png/300px-Skinner_box_scheme_01.png" alt="" width="300" height="302" style="border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; " /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;When we take game mechanics as parts to a machine designed to trigger &lt;a href="http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/dopamine" _mce_href="http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/dopamine"&gt;dopamine&lt;/a&gt; release in players, then we are no longer seeing a GAME in the common sense of the word, but rather a mechanism.  We have ceased to be artists and have become mechanics.  (Many developers don’t mind this designation, so don’t think I’m using it as a pejorative.)  I think the first time I encountered this feeling was when I learned about the &lt;a href="http://www.jordandane.com/writers_9.php" _mce_href="http://www.jordandane.com/writers_9.php "&gt;nine-act structure&lt;/a&gt; that can be seen in almost every blockbuster movie made in the last 30 years.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As our culture becomes more and more saturated with entertainment content it has been easier for us to pick up on the patterns that are at work here.  And as I discovered more and more of &lt;a href="http://www.slashfilm.com/orangeblue-contrast-in-movie-posters/" _mce_href="http://www.slashfilm.com/orangeblue-contrast-in-movie-posters/"&gt;these mechanics&lt;/a&gt;, a great, dark ennui began to engulf me.  When I went to a movie, rather than enjoying or being moved by a story, I was observing a mechanical process.  Seeing the pieces move like clockwork in an elaborate machine. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img src="http://vagueterrain.net/journal/12/clockwork.jpg" _mce_src="http://vagueterrain.net/journal/12/clockwork.jpg" alt="" width="530" height="398" style="border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; " /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I was “seeing through” the magic.  Seeing through the movie.  Losing the experience.   This is something that Lewis predicted before post-modernism had a name, but he traced the trajectory that naturalistic modernism was on and presented his case that such a trajectory has no satisfactory conclusion.  Our culture has been conditioned to “see through” so much.  To scrutinize things with a cynical eye so we can explain away what we disagree with.  To see through advertising.  To see through religion.  To see through patriotism.  To see through politics.  To see through morals.  And in our case: to see through fun.  This is where Lewis sees this ending: &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;“&lt;em&gt;But you cannot go on `explaining away' for ever: you will find that you have explained explanation itself away. You cannot go on `seeing through’ things for ever. The whole point of seeing through something is to see something through it. It is good that the window should be transparent, because the street or garden beyond it is opaque. How if you saw through the garden too? It is no use trying to `see through' first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To `see through' all things is the same as not to see.&lt;/em&gt;”&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So what I think I’m hearing from the rabble rousers that object to the study of psychology applied to games, is fear.  They fear losing the magic that I lost with movies.  I can still appreciate a well done movie, but on an un-enchanted level, as one would appreciate a well crafted chair or shoe.  My right brain doesn’t want to lose that magic that games still bring me.  But my left brain understands that in every field there is a technical expertise that must be mastered before a medium gains its full power.  Imagine if doctors didn’t want to study internal organs because understanding how digestion works would ruin the magic of humans for them.  Or if movie makers didn’t study the craft, learning what kinds of characters are compelling, what kinds of conflict work, what kinds of relationships resonate, etc.  Well, sure, movies would be less predictable, but there would also arguably be fewer good ones. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Our industry is still not even at the point of understanding what we are or how we work.  I feel like we are just now entering our adolescence.  We are still working too hard at mimicking other mediums like film, but at the same time starting to pull away and define our own personality.  This is a time for introspection.  We’ve been on the playground for a long time now.  We’ve outgrown out our magical imagination world, and I think it’s time to leave Peter Pan behind and grow up.  But that doesn’t mean we have to ignore Lewis’ warnings.  I don’t think this is a zero-sum game or a binary position where analytical understanding is antithetical to fun.  I doubt there are many doctors or culinary artists that can’t enjoy eating because they are aware of the biology going on behind the scenes.  Instead they allow their insight to inform, rather than dictate their view of their crafts.  A patient may be no more than a system of pneumatic valves and electrical impulses while a surgeon is performing heart surgery.  But when they are done they can still feel empathy and even love for the patient.  A chef can understand the chemical reactions that &lt;a href="http://www.rense.com/1.mpicons/acidalka.htm" _mce_href="http://www.rense.com/1.mpicons/acidalka.htm"&gt;acidic foods have with alkaline foods&lt;/a&gt;, yet still enjoy eating out with friends.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So is something lost when we delve into the psychology of games?  Absolutely.  Some of the magic is lost, just like when we stopped believing in Santa.  But does it then KILL fun?  Not at all.  Humans have the amazing ability to switch modes when the need arises.  Those who can’t do this have something very wrong with them.  Like a doctor who sees all humans merely as meat with a heartbeat.  With time I’ve learned to switch the analytic part of my brain off when I see movies now.  Sometimes when the tropes and clichés are particularly awful I can slip back into that headspace, sure.  But overall, I’m quite happy that I have a basic understanding of storytelling.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When you lose Santa you GAIN the ability to BE Santa.  You lose some inexplicable magical feelings.  But you gain a different pleasure from crafting experiences of joy for those you love.   And isn’t that really what making games is all about?  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;img src="http://www.cdnbiz.net/xmas/images/old_fashioned_santa.jpg" _mce_src="http://www.cdnbiz.net/xmas/images/old_fashioned_santa.jpg" alt="" width="234" height="367" style="border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; " /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;_______&lt;br /&gt;You can read Lewis’ book &lt;span _mce_style="text-decoration: underline;" style="text-decoration: underline; "&gt;The Abolition of Man &lt;/span&gt;here:&lt;a href="http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/lewis/abolition1.htm#1" _mce_href=" http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/lewis/abolition1.htm#1"&gt; http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/lewis/abolition1.htm#1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/8012825-7691005234514477500?l=joshuaforeman.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/feeds/7691005234514477500/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8012825&amp;postID=7691005234514477500' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/7691005234514477500'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/7691005234514477500'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/2011/09/cs-lewis-and-philosophy-of-game-design.html' title='C.S. Lewis and Philosophy of Game Design'/><author><name>Joshua C. Foreman</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/05522491775240272109</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='26' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_6UY1NhoIgIQ/SA_bxn4x_FI/AAAAAAAAACo/QWknsElPZN4/S220/Josh-Haricut05s.jpg'/></author><thr:total>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012825.post-4357408877356827105</id><published>2011-06-21T02:27:00.000-07:00</published><updated>2011-06-21T02:28:55.378-07:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Balrog'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='doctrine'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='relativism'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='post modern'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='language'/><title type='text'>Don’t Panic: I’ve got five pages of further explanation!</title><content type='html'>&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;My wife does a very good job of presenting the way the average person perceives me and my words.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I think I understand her to be saying that my last two posts communicate to most people two things.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;First, that words are completely meaningless to me, so I’m free to make up whatever the hell I want.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And secondly that I’m better or smarter than everyone else because see beyond their petty common concerns.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;I can see how people would see it this way.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;What I’ve found over the past several years in my own life is that there are messages and ideas that completely repelled me in the past, but after some time I’ve seen that there is validity in them.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I think this is an issue of mental stretching.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Most ideas have several foundational concepts, that if you disagree with, the idea will seem foreign, scary, evil, stupid, etc.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;So if I haven’t had time to digest any of those foundational concepts, I’ll reject the idea out of hand.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It would be like taking calculus before learning addition and subtraction. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;I don’t particularly like that analogy because it makes it sound like I’m saying I’ve ‘advanced’ from the common man’s perspective to the exalted plane I’m on now.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But I don’t feel that way.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I’ve stretched, and progressed.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But progress is a neutral word.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Progress is good if it’s a creation of beauty and worth, and bad if it’s cancer.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And I can’t say that my ideas are closer to sweetness and light or to cancer. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;What I know is that I did a lot of reading, thinking, praying, living, and conversing and ended up coming to these uncomfortable conclusions about language.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And these conclusions have big ramifications for all spheres of life, especially in morality and religion. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;So when I skip all the interim reading, thinking, praying, living and conversing, and just drop the ramifications of my conclusion on the subject of religion like a nuclear bomb, it can only come across as if I’m attacking religion.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But the fact is that I don’t have anything against my faith.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I don’t have any incentive to critique it to death.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;My sole motivation is to try to figure life out.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;To find an internally consistent framework for interpreting and evaluating the various theories about life. Even when the answers I find are uncomfortable, confusing, and difficult to integrate into the way I wish to live my life.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;One thing that struck me in my search was that it doesn’t make much sense to conduct my inquiries in a medium that I’ve not even thought much about.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;That medium is language.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And I know from experience that medium affects message.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Everything I read and hear is being affected by the medium of language, so it behooves me to analyze the nature of this medium and what kinds of messages it facilitates well, and what it has trouble with.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And the first thing I found it has trouble with is specificity.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;But that doesn’t mean that language is completely arbitrary. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Meaning is predicated on consensus.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In other words, the larger the group of people you get that agree that a word means something, the more precise that definition is. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;So there is a continuum of consensus that all words can be charted on.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Toward one end you have proper nouns like Josh and Seattle.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Because virtually everyone can agree on what those words mean specifically, there’s not a lot of wiggle room.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If you say Josh is in Seattle there’s a good 90% chance that the person Josh is in the city of Seattle.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But as you move further up the continuum it becomes harder to nail down specificities.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Words like verbs: jump, run, fall, and such get stretched pretty regularly, used poetically or hyperbolically. “ I ‘ran’ over here as soon as I heard!”&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Often really means “I changed shirts, walked to my car, and drove over here as soon as I heard.”&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But since this is rarely explained, it’s very possible that two people hearing this sentence could come away with two different narratives concerning the events described.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And can someone ‘jump’ out of their chair?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Well, that’s debatable, you’d have to get really darn specific about the definition of ‘jump’, right?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And if you ask 10 people to define jump with precision, you’ll end up with a lot of variety in the answers.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;So the consensus will not be as high as the consensus of what a proper noun like Seattle means.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;So does this mean that ‘jump’ and ‘ran’ are completely arbitrary?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Not at all!&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It means that these kinds of words are simply MORE prone to being ambiguous and causing confusion without further inquiry.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;Now consider adjectives like delicious, dark, great, lame, etc.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Speakers and listeners will bring a lot more of their personal biases and preconceptions into a statement using an adjective.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;“I was being chased by a ‘huge’ dog!” could mean an average sized dog that seemed much larger to the speaker because they were in panic mode.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But again, one can make further inquiries and dig deeper and find out it was actually a terrier.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Though this is only possible if the source is interactive, such as a person talking to you.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But in a historical document you don’t have that kind of access to the writer.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;That’s why multiple attestation is SO valuable to historians.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If they can learn about a person or event from multiple perspectives they will find different versions, and will have to examine which perspective is more likely to be accurate.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;So to reiterate: Proper nouns are very precise, verbs are less so, adjectives even less.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Basically, the further you get from a physical example that can be pointed at as reference, the more ambiguous the word becomes.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;This is because people are bringing their experiences into the equation as they interpret the words.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And because of that the consensus regarding the meaning becomes smaller and smaller.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;In institutions such as political parties and religion this fact is hidden by consolidating people of like-mind.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;So when a bunch of Christians who are close to each other in culture and doctrine get together and talk about God they get the feeling that everyone knows what is meant by God and Savior, and acceptance, etc.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I think this fosters an inaccurate impression that these words are more like proper nouns than they really are.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But the problem to me personally, is that I can’t apply a universally consistent approach to critiquing the claims within this system.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;That is: I can’t very well say: “MY faith tradition is 100% True as an a priori.”&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And then turn around and say, “But a Muslim or Buddhist needs to question THEIR a priories.”&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;So in order to have an approach that is universal to all people I actually have to include EVERYONE’S opinions when I try to define words like God, Savior and accept.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And when I do that, the words almost evaporate into complete ambiguity.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;And I have to confess, I haven’t actually stretched myself that far yet!&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;There is an emotional as well as a practical and philosophical reason for this.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The practical one is that no one can hold all the data of what every human ever thinks about these words.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The philosophical issue is that even if I COULD consider everyone’s opinion on the words there is no reason to assume that Truth is arrived at via democratic aggregate.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;However, DEFINITION is determined this way.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Although no one took a vote and decided that the world ‘cool’ should grow from a temperature designation to also mean positive, neat, fun, trendy, fashionable and such, the general consensus in western English speaking cultures can caused it to be so.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;And the emotional reason that I haven’t stretched myself to the point where I can say that the word God is practically meaningless (This does not mean that GOD is meaningless, just the word) is that I WANT to be able to talk about God.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I love God.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I speak with Him every day.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I live my life according to stories about a man who was purportedly God in the flesh.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I don’t want to lose that.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And I think it would be catastrophic for me and my family to do so.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;However, I can’t simply ignore my ‘discovery’ that theological statements are constructs built on words of sand.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;Though I’m also constrained by the humility to admit that my ‘discovery’ could be completely bass ackwards.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;There may be some vital and obvious argument that contradicts these ideas that I either can’t understand or haven’t come across yet.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;But until I find an argument that defeats this problem with the medium of language, I’m stuck with a system of understanding theological propositions as extremely arbitrary.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Not because I WANT theological propositions to be so.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Because I can’t see a way to claim that they are not.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And believe me, I’ve TRIED!&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;C.S. Lewis warns about the post modern tendency to try to ‘see through’ everything.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;By over-analyzing one can dissect a concept to the point where it dies.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Lewis says some amount of this is good, like the ability to see through a glass window into a beautiful garden is good.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But if you then seek to see through the garden, and everything beyond it you have nothing left to see.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The world becomes meaningless and intangible.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But I think there is a natural barrier to this.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;At least there is for me.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And that is the fact that I’m a flesh and blood creature in a physical environment, in relation with others like me.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;This means I’m forced to make a multitude of decisions every day about how to live my life, how to interact with others, what kind of attitude I want to bring to every situation, and I constantly receive feedback in my emotions about the results of those decisions.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;To me, this keeps me grounded.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I can’t make a decision based on an extremely arbitrary concept.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I am forced to order my values and act accordingly.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But the interesting thing is that when I do that decision-making, language rarely comes into it.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;Sometimes I’ll talk myself through a decision.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Or bounce my ideas off others using language.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It can be a very useful tool.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But as I’ve shown (and have yet to find a refutation) the words used to articulate the reasoning behind my decisions are still often nebulous.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It’s quite vague to say that I spend time every evening memorizing Bible verses with my kids because It’s something my dad did with me and I feel like a more grounded, mature person as a result.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;That statement is enough for me to decide to continue the activity.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But dig a little deeper, ask me for specifics and I really can’t give you much.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;HOW am I more grounded and mature?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;HOW do I know it was the result of my Bible memorization?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I don’t.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I just FEEL like it is.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;And this is crucial to what I’m trying to communicate in this clumsy medium we call language.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Our decisions are not made within language even though it influences us.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;They are made in a part of our mind that can be called feelings, or spiritual, or emotional, or primal.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The fact that I used so many ‘or’s there is another illustration showing the futility of articulating meaning in a medium ill-equipped to communicate it.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If we were all telepathic we could communicate on this spiritual/emotional level without words.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And you wouldn’t have just wasted your time reading four pages of text trying to figure out what the hell I’m trying to say!&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;So from my perspective, this view of language is not as radical as it may appear.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It is not the tipping point into an infinite abyss of relativity.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It is not a rejection of words as a means to understanding, wisdom, Love, God, etc. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;It is simply a recognition that language IS a medium, and as such it has its strengths and weaknesses.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And if we ignore the weakness of the medium we will abuse it and use it poorly.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But if we understand the limitations, we can wisely discern when words are inadequate to communicate certain concepts.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;When Spirit is necessary to breathe life into our minds rather than words alone.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;And this brings me back to my thoughts on faith statements and doctrine.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Because these linguistic forms cannot use nouns, but instead rely on metaphor, simile and analogies, this leaves so much room for interpretation that consensus evaporates.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And the only way to hold consensus together is to form collectives of similar thinking people who tend to interpret the words in similar ways.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Thus giving the illusion that the words are concrete and obvious.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But in my view, where I attempt to consider a broad range of opinions on the definitions for the words used, I see a vast sea of options.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;This lack of specificity could lead to helpless relativity.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;OR (and this is the case with me) lead one to conclude that another medium is at work beneath the surface.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The medium of Spirit.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Only a unified and transcendent God can take all these divergent definitions and encompass them in any meaningful way. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;In a world where there is no “Christianity” but Christianities, no “orthodox” but “orthodoxies”, no Bible but Bibles, (Ever wonder why, if God chose the original cannon of Christian scripture He let the reformers ax 7 books, and if He let that happen, why can’t a future reformation ax more?) in this world of tens of thousands of Christian denominations all insisting that THEY are the ones who are reading and interpreting the Bible correctly… how can any unity exist?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Unity can only exist in the medium of Spirit, and only because the medium of language is inadequate to specify absolute definitions of the transcendent.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;See that?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The very LIMITS of language are exactly what are NECESSARY for Spirit to operate.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;If language could be precise about theological words than unity could never exist.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It would be like different groups pointing to a tree, and one insists it’s&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;fish, and another that it’s a unicorn, and another that it’s the color blue.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The fact that language is best suited to the natural world, and least suited to the spiritual world creates enough wiggle room to fit odd shaped people together.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;No two people can precisely articulate or agree on a definition of God.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;There will always be a difference no matter how slight it might be.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;So when I worship God next to you we are worshiping two different CONCEPTS of God, though His transcendence allows us to be worshipping the same Ultimate God.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Likewise with doctrinal and faith statements.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;You can interpret something very different than I do when you repeat a doctrinal statement.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And we are both probably off by a wide margin because we are both seeing the words through our dark, distorted lenses. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Interpreting the metaphors differently. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;But if below the medium of Language there is the medium of Spirit, operating in our hearts, our distortions can be accommodated by Grace. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;The same kind of grace that we intuitively give to young children when they fail to perfectly recite their lessons or otherwise display their ignorance and limitations.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Surly if there is a God of Love, He knows that language is constantly confusing and confounding our search for Him.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;So where does this leave me on a practical level?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;How can I gain anything from my religious tradition and scripture if I can’t pin down the words with exactitude?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Well, just because I don’t know what a verse means doesn’t mean that I can’t like what I THINK it means and apply that to my life. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Sound like a pick-and-choose religion?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Well, as I’ve studied the practical application of scripture in authors and speakers too many to count I can see that they are doing EXACTLY the same thing. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;They just don’t admit it.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;They pretend that their interpretation must be the right one.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;And yet somehow this idea that I’m dissecting and killing words out of arrogance is what I’m communicating.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;My opinion is that it is arrogant to assume you KNOW concrete definitions for every word in your Bible and doctrinal statements.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But not the kind of arrogance that says you are better than others.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Just the kind that causes us all to coast through life with so many unexamined prejudices and assumptions because at the base of all our epistemology is the idea that we really ARE the arbiter of Truth.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;That we really CAN understand this world and interpret life better than anyone else. Otherwise, how could we hold any opinions?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;So my ‘progress’ if that is what it is, has been to find these unexamined assumptions and examine them.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Perhaps I’ve dug too deep and released a Balrog of philosophical destruction that will end up damning me. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If this is the case I honestly don’t know where I went wrong.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Can you say it is a sin to be curious?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;To question oneself and one’s own mind?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Is God displeased when we seek Truth with our fallible minds?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Is He mad if that search takes us out of the Christian box?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;For how else can one examine the framework one is in without stepping out of it for a better look?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Without seeking criticism from outside sources?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And if some of those criticisms seem completely valid, what then?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;How can one decide to return to a doctrine of which one is no longer convinced?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If this search is Pandora’s Box, at what point was I warned to never open it?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I’m pretty sure I never was. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;I feel like C.S. Lewis, MacDonald, Francis Schaeffer and Tolkien were behind me the whole time, cheering me on.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;What I can say with certainty is that, like every other God-lover out there, I worship the God that I HOPE exists.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I live my life by standards that are rooted not in language, but in Spirit.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I can’t articulate my doctrine, or tell you exactly what any Bible verse means.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I have opinions just like everybody, but I strive to keep them contingent upon further education, maturity or revelation.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I recognize the fragility of my own reasoning, and can only hide in the shadow of Grace.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/8012825-4357408877356827105?l=joshuaforeman.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/feeds/4357408877356827105/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8012825&amp;postID=4357408877356827105' title='2 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/4357408877356827105'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/4357408877356827105'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/2011/06/dont-panic-ive-got-five-pages-of.html' title='Don’t Panic: I’ve got five pages of further explanation!'/><author><name>Joshua C. Foreman</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/05522491775240272109</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='26' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_6UY1NhoIgIQ/SA_bxn4x_FI/AAAAAAAAACo/QWknsElPZN4/S220/Josh-Haricut05s.jpg'/></author><thr:total>2</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012825.post-8886589559925707051</id><published>2011-06-17T02:19:00.000-07:00</published><updated>2011-06-17T02:29:16.356-07:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Words'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Faith'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='apologetics'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='brownish liquid'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='theology'/><title type='text'>The Trouble with Faith Statements</title><content type='html'>&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;I want to unpack a concept that I left a bit hazy in my last blog where I said: “&lt;span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;serif&amp;quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;color:black"&gt;So if you ask me if I "accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior", I simply can’t give a yes/no answer.  Not because I’m being evasive, but because I respect definitions too much to pretend that my definitions for those words perfectly match yours…”&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;serif&amp;quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;color:black"&gt;Most Christians I know would say that this is ridiculous.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;They think that the idea of “accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior” has a very simple and obvious meaning, so not being able to answer it must mean that I’m being purposefully obtuse or deceitful or have simply “fallen away from the faith”.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The main point of that blog was to point out that theological words and concepts are necessarily metaphorical, and thus cannot contain Truth in and of themselves.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;You cannot say that the statement “Jesus is God” is True, because the word “God” has so many conceptual supporting words (such as Perfect, Omniscient, Loving, Just, etc) all of which have their OWN definitions that need to be established, and all of which are abstract metaphor.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Consider this: Can you define “perfect” as it relates to God?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I’m sure you can throw some ideas out there.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But can you define it in totality?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I submit that no one can do such a thing.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Therefore when you say that God is perfect you are speaking metaphorically.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;(I’m using the word “metaphor” very loosely here, as a catch-all word for analogy, abstract concept, simile, and probably a couple other technical thingies.) &lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;serif&amp;quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;color:black"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;serif&amp;quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;color:black"&gt;&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;In other words when you say God is perfect, you are being somewhat abstract.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And that’s ok; it can’t be helped.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If we are conceptualizing a Being of this nature it is part of the definition that It can’t be comprehensively described.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I think most Christians would agree with this. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Very few would say “I completely understand everything there is to know about God.”&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;So when we talk about God, we are talking about a concept, and we are using abstract concepts to build that concept.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Omniscient, Loving, and Just can never be adequately nailed down and agreed upon by everyone involved, so there is no solid ‘thing’ we can point to and say THAT is God, in the same way we could point to a piano and say THAT is a piano.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;serif&amp;quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;color:black"&gt;So while it may be True that Jesus is God, the statement ITSELF cannot be True, because it is composed of words that do not have definite meanings. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Because meaning for words is predicated on the consensus of a community.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If there are only three people in the world, and Bill and Ted say a piano is a musical instrument with keys that strike wires, but Jane says a piano has no keys, only strings that are plucked, then whenever the three talk about pianos the conversation is destined to be imprecise. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Just like this illustration, no community of more than one will define words like Love and Justice in exactly the same way.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;So most theological statements necessarily have different meanings to every person who hears them. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;The closest we can get to a True statement about the divinity of Jesus would be to say that “Y is X, and Y refers to a constellation of ideas about Who Jesus is/was, and X refers to a constellation of ideas about what God is.”&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And that’s just not a very satisfying faith statement, is it?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;serif&amp;quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;color:black"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;serif&amp;quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;color:black"&gt;Let’s look at a statement that can be True.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;“My name is Joshua.”&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I can point to me, being the object of this statement.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I can point to my birth certificate with my name on it and call my parents and witnesses to the veracity of this statement.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;These words all have very tight definitions because my society has very strong consensus regarding their meanings.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;There ARE philosophical problems concerning my consciousness belonging to what I perceive to be my body, that that would be a rabbit trail here.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Let’s just say on a continuum of strong definitional consensus, “My name is Joshua” is far closer to the Obvious end, and “I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior” is way over on the non-obvious end.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Here’s why.&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;serif&amp;quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;color:black"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;serif&amp;quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;color:black"&gt;What does “accept” mean in this context?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Does it mean that I mentally sign on a dotted line?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Does it mean that I HOPE this is True?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Does it mean I believe with no doubts whatsoever?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Does it mean that I do certain activities to demonstrate acceptance.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;All of these are held by some Christians and not others.&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;serif&amp;quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;color:black"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;serif&amp;quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;color:black"&gt;Who is Jesus?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Is He exactly as described in the canonized books of the Protestant Bible? &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;Is He a historical human who lived a life, 99.999% of which is NOT talked about in the canonized books of the Protestant Bible?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;How can we say we know Jesus when so much of His life is unknown?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Are we basing it on our experience of feelings and intuitions we get about Him?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If so, doesn’t that mean He’s going to be quite different to every person?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;serif&amp;quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;color:black"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;serif&amp;quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;color:black"&gt;What is a Lord in this context?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Is a Lord someone who gives you rules about living your life?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Is it someone you obey because you they will punish you if you disobey?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Is it someone you obey because they will reward you for doing so?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Is it a role-model that you strive to emulate?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Is it someone who vanquishes your enemies?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Again, these are all ideas held by many Christians, and some reject some of them while embracing others.&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;serif&amp;quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;color:black"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;serif&amp;quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;color:black"&gt;What is a savior in this context?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;What are we being saved from?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;From our sins?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;What are sins?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Bad things we do?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Bad things we think?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Anything that displeases God?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Anything that gets between us and God?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The result of a literal woman who was tricked by a literal talking snake, so now I am personally cursed and deserve to be tortured forever because of that literal woman a couple thousand years ago and her literal husband who ate literal fruit that was off limits?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Saved from my own ego?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Saved from fear?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Saved from religion?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Saved from selfishness?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Saved from demons?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;On and on, you can mix and match all day, and everyone will come up with a different combination that composes their belief about what it means for Jesus to save them.&lt;o:p&gt;&lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;serif&amp;quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;color:black"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family: &amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;,&amp;quot;serif&amp;quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&amp;quot;Times New Roman&amp;quot;;color:black"&gt;So if by “Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior” you mean Accept (believe without any doubt) Jesus (The exact literal guy talked about in the canonized Protestant Bible) as your Lord (A guy you serve so that He won’t torture you but will give you goodies) and Savior (His death made Angry-God forget about the talking snake fooling the woman and man who passed on a curse so you deserve to be tortured forever)&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;… then NO!&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I do NOT accept Jesus and my Lord and Savior.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And I dare say a great many Christians would also denounce this version of the statement for a variety of reasons.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But does that mean that I do not “accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior”?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;No.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It means if you attach specific theological concepts that I reject to those words than the MEANING changes.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You may think that you can solve this with some kind of systematic theology, where every concept is broken down into its constituent parts, analyzed, synthesized with every verse in the Bible, re-analyzed, debated, codified and published in a neat package. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;I used to think this way.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I used to really be into systematic theology.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It has such a gloss of intelligence and unity, as if an unbroken river of accumulating wisdom has been flowing through the ages.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But then I got TOO far into it.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Peeked under the surface and found out there’s a huge mass of rusty pipes squirting brownish liquid everywhere.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I found out that the unbroken line of reasoning was a bunch of cherry-picked quotes from arcane sources, and if you actually look into what those folks believed there is practically no consensus on ANY issue!&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It’s a huge mess.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And now I think I know why:&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;i&gt; &lt;/i&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;i&gt;Because it could not be any other way.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Words are simply inadequate for expressing spiritual Truth for the reasons I explained above.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And when you have a cacophony of voices throughout the ages, working in the medium of words, all coming with unique perspectives and experiences, the definitions become a jumble. It’s unavoidable.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yet I have never seen this addressed by any Christian.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Every apologist I’ve read takes it as a priori that words can and do adequately convey spiritual meaning like “Jesus is God” just as well as they convey physical meaning like “this is a piano”.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I see this as a fundamental flaw in theology and faith statements.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;If I’m right, (don’t place your bets on THAT!) then that means mankind is in a world of hurt if there is a God that demands precision beliefs in order to save us from eternal torture. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/8012825-8886589559925707051?l=joshuaforeman.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/feeds/8886589559925707051/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8012825&amp;postID=8886589559925707051' title='2 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/8886589559925707051'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/8886589559925707051'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/2011/06/trouble-with-faith-statements.html' title='The Trouble with Faith Statements'/><author><name>Joshua C. Foreman</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/05522491775240272109</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='26' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_6UY1NhoIgIQ/SA_bxn4x_FI/AAAAAAAAACo/QWknsElPZN4/S220/Josh-Haricut05s.jpg'/></author><thr:total>2</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012825.post-9169439415388733930</id><published>2011-06-16T23:25:00.000-07:00</published><updated>2011-06-16T23:44:28.780-07:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Words'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='&quot;Love Wins&quot;'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='belief'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='&quot;Rob Bell&quot;'/><title type='text'>'Love Wins' is Great Rhetoric</title><content type='html'>&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;I bought Rob Bell’s scandalous new book titled Love Wins because my wife was interested in reading it.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It’s causing a ruckus because it directly questions eternal hell doctrine, though Bell insists that he’s not a Universalist.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Well, since I passed that point a long time ago this book really doesn’t hold much interest to me.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;From what I’ve read, and heard from others, this book is not aimed at my demographic.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I own 5 or 6 books on Universalism that do what Love Wins apparently does not.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Which is to lay out an argument for a particular theology, present the verses that support it, present the ones used to dispute it, explain why those ones don’t actually mean what opponents say they mean, talk about the history of the idea and explore its ramifications.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Since I’m past the timid questioning of inherited-doctrine stage I don’t have time to retread it in Bell’s book.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I just wanted to note that the title is brilliant.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Besides being short, memorable, and explanatory enough to evoke interest, it sets a framework for the debate.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It’s like the political right does with terms like “pro life” and “war on terror”, or those from the left like “undocumented workers” and “climate change”.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;What all these rhetorical frames have in common is that they present a position that forces opponents to first explain why they are not ridiculous.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;No one wants to get on stage and say they are “anti-life”, hence the term “pro-choice”.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;No one wants to say they support terror.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;No one wants to say they want to oppress undocumented workers, and no one can deny that the climate changes.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And no Christian wants to say that Love will lose or fail.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So to refute Bell’s book they have to start by re-framing the conversation.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Of course most Christians will say that Love DOES win.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;They simply have different stipulations for a winning condition.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;When it comes to proposing a system that has a win/lose proposition, unless there are agreed upon rules and goals, then “winning” is quite arbitrary and ambiguous.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Take the act of living for example.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Some think you are loser if you don’t make enough money, or don’t have a hot significant other or if you live with your mom.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Some say you are winning if you have inner peace, no matter your material possessions.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Hell, Charlie Sheen actually thinks that HE is “winning” at life.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;So “Wins” in Rob Bell's book title is fantastic because it’s evocative, emotional, arbitrary, and just like Obama’s political slogans like “Hope we can believe in”: ultimately meaningless because it means something different to everyone.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And this is actually the key to understanding where I am at spiritually right now.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I’ve discovered that almost all theological words are more or less just like “wins”.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;They all carry with them a definition that is unique to every person who hears them.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The world of theology involves lots of people hashing out what they think all these words mean, generally within a pre-established system that imposes its own limits on how much wiggle-room one has to really dig into those personal meanings.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Without those limits, the system falls apart and the institutional church would disintegrate.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;So I certainly don’t blame institutional Christianity for carefully patrolling their borders.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I simply can’t agree that staying behind the fence is the best way to search for God and Truth. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;In order to truly search, you need to be able to roam, to ask the questions that don’t get answered satisfactorily by your tradition. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That’s the point I’ve got to in my search.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It’s not a matter of rejecting my inherited tradition as false.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It’s a matter of recognizing that their definitions may be off.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In fact, that those definitions MUST be off, because human language depends on metaphor to conceptualize spiritual ideas, and metaphor by definition cannot be precise.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;So recognizing that our definitions are loosey-goosey, I can’t very well say: “Christianity (or my particular strain of it) is True.”&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I can only say I think it’s the closest religious tradition to Truth.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But then I have to wonder HOW close it can even be.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;It could be the case that Christianity is like a stack of 4 pennies, and Hinduism is a stack of 3 pennies, and Truth is a Trillion dollars.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;In this case the difference is just not that big a deal.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Since all our revelation is metaphor we cannot even GUESS at how close our ideas and definitions are to Truth.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;We can look at how our religious metaphors affect the way we live and act.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Though even that is a dubious proposition since there is no way to separate the effects that faith has on a life from culture, upbringing, economics, health, intelligence, etc.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;My Christian apologetic tradition tries to make the case that we can examine history and see that in the aggregate those under the purview of Christianity have a variety of societal and moral advantages.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;I’ve come to the conclusion that life and civilization is too complex to attribute this to one factor.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And I guess that is what I’ve come to believe the older I get: life is just too complex to make simple diagnoses and definitions.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;So if you ask me if I "accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior", I simply can’t give a yes/no answer.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Not because I’m being evasive, but because I respect definitions too much to pretend that my definitions for those words perfectly match yours, or anyone else’s.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  (Just like Sheen's definition of "winning" is different than Rob Bell's and different than Ghandi's.)  &lt;/span&gt;I simply admit that my metaphors cannot be precise enough to create a tidy system of belief matrices. &lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;So I’ve stopped pretending that I can.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I don’t consider this a rejection of my faith or a refutation to anyone else’s beliefs.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It’s simply a position that says that words are an inadequate medium for expressing Truth.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;They can point us in the direction of Truth… I hope.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But I’m convinced that words cannot get us all the way there.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  Even though many Christian theologies are predicated on the idea that they can.  So I guess I just contradicted myself.  This position IS a refutation of a specific belief.  The belief that we must Know Truth to attain salvation.  Whether that refutation is damning or not I cannot say.  Only that I don't know how I could possibly erase the epiphanies that brought me to this conclusion. &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/8012825-9169439415388733930?l=joshuaforeman.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/feeds/9169439415388733930/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8012825&amp;postID=9169439415388733930' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/9169439415388733930'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/9169439415388733930'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/2011/06/love-wins-is-great-rhetoric.html' title='&apos;Love Wins&apos; is Great Rhetoric'/><author><name>Joshua C. Foreman</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/05522491775240272109</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='26' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_6UY1NhoIgIQ/SA_bxn4x_FI/AAAAAAAAACo/QWknsElPZN4/S220/Josh-Haricut05s.jpg'/></author><thr:total>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012825.post-1926349221943639639</id><published>2011-06-01T16:22:00.000-07:00</published><updated>2011-06-01T18:48:49.025-07:00</updated><title type='text'>Spiral Dynamics and Christianity</title><content type='html'>&lt;div&gt;Woah!  So cool.  I like this theory a lot.  I guess because it mirrors the way my thinking has been evolving to a great extent.  In my previous faith paradigm I thought that the only way you could move from one belief system to another is to totally reject or denounce the first and embrace the second as a new Truth with a capitol T.  In other words, I thought you had to rebel against the old before you could consider the new.  But now that I view language as an ethereal medium, like a gas that changes shape to fit many ideas, I view new thought paradigms simply as fun exercises in imaginative power.  As attempts to find the best tools for living and understanding this crazy thing we call reality.   &lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;a href="http://vimeo.com/22815564"&gt;http://vimeo.com/22815564&lt;/a&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;a href="http://vimeo.com/22894310"&gt;http://vimeo.com/22894310&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;a href="http://vimeo.com/23181244"&gt;http://vimeo.com/23181244&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/8012825-1926349221943639639?l=joshuaforeman.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/feeds/1926349221943639639/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8012825&amp;postID=1926349221943639639' title='1 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/1926349221943639639'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/1926349221943639639'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/2011/06/spiral-dynamics-and-christianity.html' title='Spiral Dynamics and Christianity'/><author><name>Joshua C. Foreman</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/05522491775240272109</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='26' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_6UY1NhoIgIQ/SA_bxn4x_FI/AAAAAAAAACo/QWknsElPZN4/S220/Josh-Haricut05s.jpg'/></author><thr:total>1</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012825.post-2089511311087110797</id><published>2011-05-29T00:18:00.000-07:00</published><updated>2011-05-29T00:23:12.235-07:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='games'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Video project'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='P-90X'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Exercise'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='food'/><title type='text'>This year</title><content type='html'>&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;Wow, has it really been a year since my last post here?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I guess it has.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I’m not sure why exactly I haven’t been as enthusiastic about blogging as I was the past 7 years.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I can’t really claim to be more busy.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I’ve always been too busy.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Maybe I’ve just been better about staying focused at work.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I’ve still been writing a lot, just been keeping it to much smaller posts on Face Book, embroiled in conversations.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Been having a lot of fun interacting with other heretics there.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Speaking of heretical beliefs, I think I’ve been drifting at pretty much the same trajectory as I have been since I started this blog.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Still contemplating all sorts of things, but I think I’m over a hump where every new thought is profoundly unsettling.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I’m thinking that the very basic issue at the root of my heretical bent has to do with the limits of language.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;After recognizing that all religious talk is highly malleable metaphor, I realized that all the debate about the details is close to pointless.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I’m still developing a clear and succinct way of expressing this.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;But in the mean time I’ve been really excited about a video project I’ve been working on over the past several months.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;It started with the last post on here about story in video games.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I developed the idea a bit further and had some great conversations with some smart, articulate game critics, and developed it some more.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;One of them told me I should make a video about the topic.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And eventually that got my creative gears engaged.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;And as my mind works, it expanded into a huuuuge project.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;But I really think it has the potential to pay off big dividends.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I’m basically making a video essay, but a really entertaining one with lots of characters, skits, art, etc. employed to make my point.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It’s got a message that I think is very timely and can hopefully get popular enough to actually shape my industry.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;(Which can’t hurt my career.)&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I’ve been working on the script for a couple months and collecting all the costumes, props, and equipment.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I think I’ll be shooting footage within a month or so.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;And I might look good by the time I’m shooting.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I’ve FINALLY got to some internal milestone where I’ve been able to keep up a fitness/weight loss routine.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I’ve been working out regularly since October.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Started out jogging, then got a system for the Playstation 3 Called EA Sports 2 where you put on sensors and follow along to workouts.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Then I got a program called P-90X, which a lot of my co-workers have done and said great things about.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I actually forced myself to figure out how to cook, and now I make all my breakfasts and lunches for the week on Sunday night and have salad for dinner every weeknight.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Around this time last year I was around 210, the heaviest I’ve ever been.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Now I’m down to 184, and hoping to get down to 170 before I start filming.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Oh vanity.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;At least it gives me a goal and incentive.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The thing that sucks is that P-90X takes all my time.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Most week-nights I’m home from work, start working out, and by the time the shower is over, I’ve had my salad, it’s time for bed.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;So hopefully after I’m done with P-90X I can find a decent balance that lets me maintain a healthy weight AND have a life outside of that.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;   &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;Sadly, two things are hindering my health progress.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;First, all the food repression I do during the week goes out the window on the weekend.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I turn into super glutton-man on Saturday and Sunday.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;It’s an obnoxious game my brain plays, telling me I’ve suffered so much during the week that I deserve the break.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Problem being it always goes beyond a break and goes overboard.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;So while I passed a maturity milestone, it’s clear that I still have a ways to go.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;The other thing slowing me down is a shoulder issue that developed a couple weeks into P-90X.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;There are some pretty intense weight training, and apparently my muscles in the left shoulder weren’t qualified to do what I told them to do.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;So I’ve been seeing physical therapists for a couple months and it’s only been getting worse.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;So I can’t follow the program, and I’ve just been doing parts of it that don’t involve any arm stuff, and now I’ve been hovering at 185 for weeks.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Very frustrating.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;&lt;o:p&gt; &lt;/o:p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p class="MsoNormal"&gt;Let’s see… what else has happened this year?&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Oh, I can say that I’m excited about the way the game market has opened up to small and indie developers with platforms like iPad/Pod/Phone, Android, etc.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I’ve got a couple games in pre-production that I’ll be getting to in earnest when I’m done with my video project.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Been finding programmers who want to help with my stuff in return for me making art for them.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I’ve also got a real website in development for Breath of Life Art Studio that will be a really cool hub for all my creative output.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;I guess that’s enough of an update for now.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;Hopefully I’ll be back in less than a year.&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt;  &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style="mso-spacerun:yes"&gt; &lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/8012825-2089511311087110797?l=joshuaforeman.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/feeds/2089511311087110797/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8012825&amp;postID=2089511311087110797' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/2089511311087110797'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/2089511311087110797'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/2011/05/this-year.html' title='This year'/><author><name>Joshua C. Foreman</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/05522491775240272109</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='26' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_6UY1NhoIgIQ/SA_bxn4x_FI/AAAAAAAAACo/QWknsElPZN4/S220/Josh-Haricut05s.jpg'/></author><thr:total>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012825.post-4694339089796506018</id><published>2010-06-10T17:54:00.001-07:00</published><updated>2010-06-15T14:37:03.944-07:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='art'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='games'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='shadow of the collosus'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='story'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='future'/><title type='text'>Why I Hate Stories in Video Games</title><content type='html'>&lt;span xmlns=""&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Let me clarify that I'm referring to "story" in the most common sense that most game players perceive as story.  (that is: cutscenes as opposed to world design, mechanics and other intrinsic communication ques.)  I'll go into what I think future storytelling in games should look like after the critique.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The video game industry.  So here we are.  40 years old.  (give or take)  For some perspective, let's look at where the movie industry was at 40… making films like Gone with the Wind.  What do we have that compares?  To be fair, our industry has bigger technological and logistical hurdles to leap than the film industry did.  Yes, cameras, film, sound and color all developed and put them through their growing pains.  But within ten years they had created the formula for the medium that is still used to this day.  They took the linier story telling of novels and plays and put them together with the power of music and editing to create a new experience that transcended the artforms they utilized.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But when it comes to video games, we are nowhere near the point at which the technology is stable enough to start building a game media paradigm that will last for a hundred years.  This causes major problems for us.  First of all, it gives us a moving target.  Our design is constantly constrained and changed by these technological limits.  Here's a real world example from my own career.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;When I worked at Outrage Entertainment and we had just finished the expansion pack for Descent 3 we were in the awesome position of coming up with our own new IP.  We all pitched our various ideas, and one was chosen that was particularly close to my heart.  I had championed the design and became art lead for the project and a designer as well.  The concept was rather unique and the design was very ambitious.  Our publisher wanted us to make this a PlayStation 2 game.  The system was not out yet and the specs were still a bit up in the air.  There were hyperbolic statements coming from Sony about how the new system would give us games with the graphical quality and fidelity of Toy Story.  Accompanying these sorts of claims were videos released by Oddworld Inhabitants of their game in development for the PS2 called Munch's Oddysee.  These videos were breathtaking to us developers.  They featured realistic lighting and crisp textures the likes of which we had never seen.  Well it turned out that these videos were pre-rendered conceptualizations of what they &lt;em&gt;wanted&lt;/em&gt; the game to look like.  And later, after discovering the limitations that the PS2 had due to some truly bizarre design decisions that Sony made, Oddworld Inhabitants ended up ditching the system and released their game on the more powerful and easy-to-develop-for X Box.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But we didn't know any of that at the time.  All we saw was a really, really high bar, and that fueled a storm of speculation about how to go about creating a game that would look that amazing.  And from the design side, we were being given promises about how many A.I. the PS2 would be able to move around at once.  So we had pressure to make sure we were competitive on that front as well.  So after putting our heads together we came up with this design for a blend between a tactical strategy game and a platformer.  The player would be the leader of a tribe of diminutive bronze-age aliens who had a fort on the back of a giant dino-type pet.  They were on a journey to refill their magical orb that births and sustains them.  We developed a deep eco-system that they would have to traverse, full of interactive things like trees you could order your workers to chop down so your beast of burden could cross a canyon, berries that you could order your scholars to study so they could concoct healing potions, and complex predator/prey chains that you could work to your advantage.  I still get tingles when I think about how awesome this game could have been.  (Sadly Interplay neglected our contract and stopped their payments, dooming the game.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But my point is about the ever-shifting landscape that defines our jobs as game creators.  So, we started our design based on the promises Sony gave us.  We had a tribe of something like 50 aliens for you to order around.  We had realistic food-chains happening all over the place.  We had a dinosaur 50 times bigger than the player with a small village on its back.  The dinosaur's feet had to realistically conform to the terrain in ways that were unprecedented at the time.  All of this made possible by the stunning technological achievement that was the upcoming PlayStation 2.  Then it all came to a screeching halt.  We finally got the dev machines.  Our programmers got in there and started doing real performance tests.  And they were much afraid.  They assumed that there was some vital piece of information that would make their findings match up with the incredible hype that Sony had been spewing, so they said to pair our ambitious design back a bit, just in case.  So we lowered the number of the tribe.  Months later they were more afraid.  We cut back more of the tribe.  Cut several features.  Months later we finally came to terms with the real limits of the system and had to redesign almost every component of the game to compensate.  The initial vision was so distorted and constrained that the final design we had could almost be considered a different game.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Now imagine if this happened in film.  Imagine if an arbitrary technological deficit kept a director from pointing the camera in certain directions.  Or made it so the film could only pick up 3 actors at a time.  Or if background extras could never move.  These limitations could be worked around, sure.  But they would put definite limits on the kinds of stories that could be told, and certainly on the tone or mood that the films convey.   Of course there were big limitations early on in the media of film.  Not having vocal dialog is huge.  Lack of color is pretty big.  But I can make pretty good corollaries to video games that illustrate my point that our similar leaps have already happened and we still have many, many more to go.  The gradually increased resolution of video games is sort of like the finer film quality that developed over the first half of the 20&lt;sup&gt;th&lt;/sup&gt; century.  The change from colored blocks representing warriors and race cars into pieces of art that clearly represented said objects was slow and granular so it's hard to call that a "leap".  The same goes for the evolution from synthetic bleeps and bloops to fully orchestrated soundtracks and real dialog.  But one thing that that was a clear and definite transition was the leap to the 3&lt;sup&gt;rd&lt;/sup&gt; dimension.  To me, that seems like a bigger leap than film's sound and color put together.  It opened up such a huge world of possibilities for designers that simply weren't possible before.   And yet we still have so far to go before our medium is stable.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The reason I want to establish this before telling you why story in video games suck, is because I believe that our industry's attempt at story telling is simply a stop-gap for something far greater that is to come.  After we get through our growing pains.  Right now we hire writers to fill out our games with story.  And most of the time, these stories are just like those you would find in movies and novels and plays and epic poems and opera.  Not that they are as good.  In general, they are terribly derivative, juvenile, and would be boring if translated to a script or book.  (Of course there are terribly derivative, juvenile books and plays and movies too.)  But what I want to point out is that video game stories are like these other media in one important way.  They are linier narratives.  They are situations constructed by an author to tell a story in a particular way.   And most important to my point: THEY DEFINE THE PROTAGONIST.  To me, the most obvious strength that the medium of video games has is that they cast the player as the protagonist.  In fact, a strong case can be made that this is &lt;em&gt;the&lt;/em&gt; defining element that makes the medium what it is.  The player has Agency within the world of the game.  And this is what most video game stories actively combat!  They say: "You are X, a brawny barbarian who solves his problems with an axe."  Or "You are Y, a femme fatale who must use her cunning and magic to defeat Z."  These I don't object to because they are part of the theme or genre.  The problem is when they attempt to shoehorn a 3 act structure into the game by denying the player their Agency while they show you poorly animated and acted scenes of …"you" saying and doing things that you, the human probably would not say or do in the same situation.  This undermines the Agency that is at the heart of the medium.  This implicitly says that our medium is not legitimate.  That we need to be more like those other well-established art forms like film and literature.  To me, this is like a child in the workshop with daddy.  Daddy is building a chair, and the kid is using his little plastic hammer to repetitively bang on his little plastic work bench pretending to be daddy.  The child sees the actions that daddy is doing, and tries to imitate it, though with much less success.   And what I'm saying is that we need to stop trying to be daddy.  We weren't meant to be carpenters.  We were meant to be painters or astronauts, or some other non-hammering profession.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is why game cutscenses annoy and… almost offend me.  I don't like my little plastic hammer!  I don't want to pretend, and do something half-assed.  If I have agency, let me be my &lt;em&gt;own&lt;/em&gt; Agent, not some amalgam of me and something a juvenile fiction author came up with.  And here is where I must make an important distinction.  Most video games -with the exception of puzzle games- put you in the shoes of a defined protagonist.  A chubby plumber in Wonderland, a pro baseball player, a busty warrior chick in middle earth, etc.  This type of role-playing does not offend me.  Because this is presented to me, the consumer, when I'm making a choice about how I want to spend my precious entertainment time.  When I choose a world to act in I'm looking for themes and aesthetics and mechanics that seem fun to me.  Listening to Solid Snake apologize to his whiney girlfriend about missing her birthday when he's on the most important mission in the world is not part of that.  I'm 35.  I'm not looking for angsty teen melodrama.  I don't care about saving princesses.  I just want to play in a world that appeals to me.  Make my own story.  Be the kind of character I choose to be.  I'm a curmudgeon, I know.  And I know that the current hybrid game/movie paradigm will probably never go away.  Too many people like it.  And that's fine for them.  I just personally think it's a disgusting chimera.  And I can't wait for the day when we can hack the goat head and snake tail off and proudly declare that we are a lion.           &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Maybe that is why I'm such a fan of Ico and Shadow of the Colossus.  These games present you with a world, theme and minimal set of characters.  Then let's you go.  They give you simple mechanics that you have to creatively combine to progress, and even though the action is mostly linear you are not having your character constantly updated and defined with cutscenes.  Ico made me FEEL empathy for Yorda.  Not because the game yanked the camera out of my hand and force fed me a bunch of dialog about how endangered and pitiful she is and how she needs my help.  No, they built the mechanics &lt;span style="font-style: italic;"&gt;around&lt;/span&gt; the concept of empathy.  This is an exploration of a theme through ACTION and CHOICE, rather than dialog.  This is what I think the future of games as an artform will be.  In Shadow of the Colossus (Excellent review here: &lt;a href="http://tap-repeatedly.com/Reviews/Shadow_of_the_Colossus/Colossus.shtml"&gt;http://tap-repeatedly.com/Reviews/Shadow_of_the_Colossus/Colossus.shtml&lt;/a&gt; ) your Agency is actually used by the designers as a foil to progression.  There are no cutscenes where the Wanderer stops and questions his motives or pontificates about the nature of the beautiful, majestic giants he is impelled to kill, or composes a Fichtean critique of revelation.  Instead, the designers use the tools that are intrinsic to video games to cause the player to think these things.  Music, sound, atmosphere, repetition -even the down time of traveling from one location to another- giving the player time to reflect.  Distance and sparseness as tools of communication are examples of a transcending element that video games can utilize.  Just as film transcends music and images through a gestalt process of combination, becoming its own art form, so video games can bring together music, image, and Agency to create a truly new and unique form of artistic expression.  But there's something missing still.  I think that games like Shadow of the Colossus are so rare because our industry lacks definition.  We are still under our father's shadow, and seek his approval before we are proud of ourselves.  After all, daddy is big and successful and popular.  (Not many game designers being chased down by the paparazzi.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But when we grasp that Agency with both hands, eschew our training wheels of artificially linier narrative, and go with our strength I think we will find the wings that will let us soar to undiscovered heights.  But as I pointed out, the hurdle to this nirvana of gaming is not simply philosophical.  It's devastatingly technological.  After the jump to 3-D I consider the next leap we made to be the invention of the sand box game.  Here, rather than being given a path from A to B with various obstacles, we are given a toolset of mechanics and given the freedom to use them in creative ways, exercising our Agency in the pacing and flow of the game.  There is still generally a linier narrative (defining the protagonist) that can be accessed at points the player chooses,  but… baby steps.  Baby steps.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Now, it's not that designers had never conceived of a big open world with a suite of mechanics for a player to experiment with.  It's simply that the technology was not ready until recently.  Had a game company made a sandbox game in 1995 it would have been a big flat plane with some pyramids.  I'm looking at our technology now, and seeing all sorts of problems that only have technological solutions.  The Uncanny Valley, the expense of physics, the foolish A.I., and the need to hand-generate most of our assets.  What sorts of new innovations will emerge as these limitations are overcome?  I don't know for certain.  Obviously we designers will never run out of ideas for games.  And we all long for the Star Trek Holodeck.  The question is about what we will do with it once we have it.  Would we still create linier narratives where the player is forced to watch her character develop according to some author's ideas?  Or will we empower the player by granting them the full power of their agency, allowing them to define their own character?  I hope the answer is obvious.  If it is, if our pipe-dream is to fully empower the players, than it seems to me that our current game/movie hybrid is simply the result of our lack of technological sophistication.  Perhaps in the future our game writers will be working on creating compelling interaction concepts for A.I. and making the world resonate thematically, supporting my choices as a player, rather than yanking my leash from point A to B and undermining my Agency with motives, attitudes and personality that aren't mine.               &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/8012825-4694339089796506018?l=joshuaforeman.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/feeds/4694339089796506018/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8012825&amp;postID=4694339089796506018' title='3 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/4694339089796506018'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/4694339089796506018'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/2010/06/why-i-hate-stories-in-video-games.html' title='Why I Hate Stories in Video Games'/><author><name>Joshua C. Foreman</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/05522491775240272109</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='26' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_6UY1NhoIgIQ/SA_bxn4x_FI/AAAAAAAAACo/QWknsElPZN4/S220/Josh-Haricut05s.jpg'/></author><thr:total>3</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012825.post-461925009896330029</id><published>2010-03-18T12:45:00.000-07:00</published><updated>2010-03-18T12:46:54.074-07:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Faith'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='obedience'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Christianity'/><title type='text'>Why I’m a Christian 5: Jesus is special</title><content type='html'>&lt;p&gt;For the previous parts to this series see &lt;a href="http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner%7Ey2009m10d6-Why-Im-a-Christian-1-God-vs-no-God" target="_blank"&gt;1&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href="http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner%7Ey2009m10d21-Why-Im-a-Christian-2-I-want-to-believe" target="_blank"&gt;2&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href="http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner%7Ey2009m11d25-Why-Im-a-Christian-3-Gratitude" target="_blank"&gt;3&lt;/a&gt;, &amp;amp; &lt;a href="http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner%7Ey2010m1d13-Why-Im-a-Christian-4-Utility" target="_blank"&gt;4&lt;/a&gt;.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;img src="http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID19272/images/Jesus.jpg" alt="" align="left" height="354" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="256" /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I  think that Jesus is special.  Not ‘short bus’ special, but ‘distinct in  important ways’.  Of course this can be said about anyone, and  especially applied to any great leader, teacher, or religious prophet.   When one uses the adjective “special” to describe a person, there is no  numeric or standardized method for determining the validity of the  designation.  So I’m not here to say that Jesus was “more special” than  Gautama or Muhammad, as though the comparison would mean anything.  What  I want to say is that Jesus displays characteristics that are important  and meaningful to me.  More important than the characteristics of the  Buddha or Joseph Smith.   This ought to be expected given my upbringing  in a seriously Christian family and a post-Christian country spawned by a  long lineage of Christian cultures.  Western civilizations have been  shaped by the ideas of Christianity for a long time, and as a product of  that so-shaped culture, my preferences, assumptions, attitudes and  moral foundations can all be traced in many important ways to an  interpretation of who and what Jesus was.   &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;What I’m  establishing here is the point that &lt;strong&gt;I am biased&lt;/strong&gt;.   Deeply embedded cultural forms channel my thinking on the topic of  Jesus, religion, philosophy and such.  So when I’m making this  determination about Jesus being my key for interpreting reality I do so  as one who’s mind has been molded into a shape that is receptive to a  Jesus-shaped key.  Now, I don’t think I’m the only person who has  biases, and I believe that &lt;em&gt;every&lt;/em&gt; human mind has been shaped by  their environment and upbringing so that certain truths are harder or  easier to accept.   And conversely certain &lt;em&gt;un&lt;/em&gt;truths are harder  or easier to accept.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;img src="http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID19272/images/JesusKey.jpg" alt="" align="middle" height="164" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="440" /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To  determine whether my interpretation of Jesus has more truth or  falsehood in it, I have two options.  I can “go with my gut”, and let  “faith be my guide”.  (In other words, just accept the way my mind has  been molded and take it to be the best way for determining Truth.)  The  other option would be to seek the consensus of others.  I would assume  that the broader the consensus is, the less skewed the answers will be  towards a particular bias.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;An exception would be in the case  of specialized knowledge, such as medical knowledge or astronomical  knowledge.  Polling everyone on earth and taking the most popular answer  may not be the best way to determine what’s causing this rash or what  the composition of Saturn is.  For those kinds of answers I would want  to consult a smaller pool of people, selected based on their expertise.   But is religious knowledge (if such a thing exists) sufficiently like  medical and astronomical knowledge, and thus warrant a limited pool of  specialists?  Or do the specialists just bring with them &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading" target="_blank"&gt;special  pleading&lt;/a&gt;?   This seems to be the case since there are many &lt;em&gt;many&lt;/em&gt;  more specialist opinions concerning Jesus than there are concerning the  chemical composition of the planets in our solar system.  You can get a  group of astronomers together and the vast majority will agree on the  vast majority of astronomical concepts.  But get a group of religious  experts together and the vast majority will disagree on the vast  majority of religious concepts.  (Unless you limit your pool to a very  small one such as a denominational convention.) &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So where does  this leave you and I, the non-religious-specialist, seeking religious  Truth?  Well, as far as I can tell it leaves us in the consumerist  position of simply choosing the religious specialist or group of  specialists that appeals to us.  Which just leads back to the first  option I mentioned: of going with our gut and letting faith be our  guide.  If you are as unsatisfied with that answer as I am, let’s try to  really find an alternative to this method.  Back to the polling of all  humans from all times.  Let’s take a swim in the sea of general popular  opinion and see if that’s a more promising place to find Truth.    &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In  other words, I would trade in my own known bias (Christianity) for a  general wash of biases that could average out the effects of individual  biases.  This is &lt;em&gt;sort&lt;/em&gt; of a scientific approach.  Peer review  and such.   My polling question would be whether those outside my  tradition could recognize those same characteristics in Jesus that I see  as special.  Well, there is an immediate problem with this procedure.   Unlike a scientific theorem, the evidence presented has huge emotional  triggers embedded in it.  I’m not pointing at ice core samples or blue  shifts that don’t really make demands on us and our personal behavior  and beliefs.  Redwood growth charts don’t remind us of pushy  door-to-door evangelists, hard pews, boring music, or hypocritical  parents that we still resent  (Not me personally.) the way certain  religious concepts may. Hopefully we all understand that when the  emotions are engaged in an intellectual assessment our bias is  strongest.  So while a numerical majority may find a certain  interpretation of Jesus to be wrong or unconvincing, that can hardly be  used as an objective measure with which to determine its validity.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But  you could say that the vast majority of humans are pretty apathetic  towards Jesus, so it would seem that they would be ideal candidates for  getting an unbiased opinion.  The big problem is that this group of  people is also overwhelmingly ignorant of the pertinent data concerning  Him.  The only way to get a polling from informed people is to turn to  the specialists, which again, leads back to option number 1: go with my  gut and pick the specialists that seem best to me.   &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So those  are the two poles of investigation that I know of.  1. Go with what I’m  comfortable with, and 2. Go with a majority position on the issue.   Frankly, both options suck.  The first one suffers from a lack of  universal applicability.  For instance, if my spiritual leader says to  me, “&lt;em&gt;You were raised with the correct view of Jesus, so just believe  it&lt;/em&gt;.” How can I justify this when a spiritual leader on the other  side of the world says the exact same thing to someone who believes an  opposing view is correct?  Am I to assume that THEY are the one who have  been mislead and must break through the blinders of THEIR tradition in  order to find the Truth?  How can I possibly know that I’M not the one  who needs to do that?  Because MY system makes such good sense?  OF  COURSE IT DOES! (to me.) I’ve been raised to ask &lt;em&gt;certain&lt;/em&gt;  questions in &lt;em&gt;specific&lt;/em&gt; ways that my system has evolved to answer  perfectly well.  I’m sure they have the same dilemma.  I doubt that  they have some glaring contradiction in their worldview that they just  choose to ignore.  (At least no more than I have.)  But again, I could  be wrong about that.  Perhaps my culture is the chosen one that has  developed the right questions-and-answers format, and any person from  another culture who steps into this system should slap their forehead  and exclaim, “&lt;em&gt;How could I have been so stupid?!&lt;/em&gt;”  For some  reason, I’m dubious of that.  I’m not comfortable making that a basic  assumption that my whole worldview is based on.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But option 2  also seems hopeless.  How can I count on a majority of the world to be  right about something that the majority of the world knows almost  nothing about?  And if I narrow the pool of consensus down to only those  who know a lot about Jesus, haven’t I just selected a much more biased  pool?  Since a theory for any particular interpretation of Jesus is  based on historical evidence, theological tradition and existential  feelings, there’s not a lot of solid consensus to go by.  Two people  could look at exactly the same set of historical evidences.  One person  may interpret Jesus as a Jewish mystic who was executed, and nothing  more.  And the other may feel that they speak to Jesus daily and have  enlightenment and salvation through Him.  I think the Jesus Seminar does  a pretty good job of determining the very minimum of what can be  historically “known” about Him.  I think they go too far when they  proclaim that these bullet points are the &lt;em&gt;only&lt;/em&gt; thing that CAN  BE true about Him, excluding the miraculous on purely philosophical  grounds.  What their work tells me is that historical analysis can only  take us so far.  Those who are unwilling to proceed past the comfortable  consensus of modern scholarship will have to be content to see Jesus as  an interesting historical figure who probably did some stuff and might  have said some things.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Having been raised in a fairly orthodox  Christian family of intellectuals I’ve had my fill of Christian  apologetics.  I’m fairly confident that I’ve read every major argument  for the Christian faith many times over.  For those who want the best of  this work see the following: &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodoxy_%28book%29" target="_blank"&gt;G.K.  Chesterton’s Orthodoxy&lt;/a&gt;,   &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_Christianity" target="_blank"&gt;C.S.  Lewis’ Mere Christianity&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_Is_There_and_He_Is_Not_Silent" target="_blank"&gt;Francis Scheaffer’s He Is There and He Is Not Silent&lt;/a&gt;,  &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_for_Christ#Other_books" target="_blank"&gt;Lee Strobel’s The Case for Christ&lt;/a&gt;  and &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josh_Mcdowell" target="_blank"&gt;Josh  McDowell’s Evidence That Demand’s a Verdict&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;All this reading has  given me plenty of option-number-one: going with the faith that I  received.  There are plenty of bad arguments in the above works: special  pleading, circular logic, and emotional pleas.  But there are also a  lot of really good points.  As I’ve ventured in the wider world of  thought, attempting option-number-2 more often, I’ve discovered that  there really is something special about Jesus.  I’ve looked into a bunch  of those claims about how Jesus is just like various other deities, or  his teachings are so similar to Buddha and other Eastern religions, and  how he was simply one of many itinerant prophets operating during that  time in that region.  They are all very compelling as long as you stay  at the bullet-point level.  But once I started actually researching the  claims they fall apart pretty quickly as evidences against a Christian  interpretation of Him.  As for the points that do stick, I honestly  don’t see them as a challenge to the concept of &lt;a href="http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/2008/05/true-myth.html" target="_blank"&gt;Jesus as God-man&lt;/a&gt;.  &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I’m not going to get  into all the arguments here.  The point of these articles is not to  advocate my particular beliefs, but just to explore them and my  motivation behind adhering to them.  Besides, there are plenty of  resources out there for those who are interested. &lt;br /&gt;But again, here I  am examining arguments from one side, comparing them to arguments from  another side, and agreeing with the side that sounds best to me.  And as  I’ve said, what sounds best has been programmed into me and my culture  since before my birth.  I’m hardly in a position to make such judgments.   So where does that leave me?  The easy answer is to throw my hands up  in frustration and walk away from the whole issue.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;  This is  why I totally understand the Materialist impulse to simply shut down  investigation at the point it leaves the bedrock of current consensus.   We find consensus in our sciences, and so it would be sort of nice if  there were no unaccounted-for reality that intruded into our little  sphere of “knowledge”.  Once the head and legs have been fully retracted  into the turtle shell of physical existence there is no need to bother  with the messy theories about gods and origin and purpose.  These are  disturbing theories that &lt;img src="http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID19272/images/TurtleShell.jpg" alt="" align="right" height="270" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="300" /&gt;demand  we make intuitive leaps based on our biased proclivities, or force us  to consider the cacophonous opinions of the spiritual seekers.  Within  the womblike comfort of their turtle shell the materialist comes up with  a theory for reality that simply says nothing they can’t perceive  exists, (or if it does it’s not important) so there is no need to  investigate questions that have already been declared to be dead ends. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Comforting,  and in some ways easy, but  that’s a place I just can’t stay.  Not  because I know that they are wrong about the non-existence of spiritual  worlds.  (No one can possibly know that.)  But because I’m too curious  to swallow the materialist pill and shut down investigation of these  issues that drive the vast majority of our lives.  These issues of  purpose and destiny are the only things that give meaning to our  actions.  And while it’s totally possible that we made these concepts  up, I’m not going to assume that. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;So again, I am stuck with  two appalling, imperfect choices when it comes to interpreting Jesus.   (Or any other historical/philosophical idea.)  Go with my inherited  tradition created by a culture of Jesus-lovers, or accept the general  indifference of the world at large.  My answer?  An awkward, stilted  In-Between.  I’m striving to learn everything I can from as many sources  as possible, attempting to ascertain their motives, biases, and  wordviews; while still honoring an interpretation of Jesus that sees Him  as Truth.  I note that what this interpretation of Jesus actually means  is very hard, if not impossible, to nail down in a few aphorisms.  I  can’t dogmatize the subject.  I can’t make solid claims that every  reasonable person would agree with.  I’m going with my gut.  But I’m  trying to balance that with a realistic assessment of the historical and  philosophical claims.  I’m approaching Jesus in a mechanical, clinical,  critical historical manner, but attempting to balance that with the  existential dimension of life that refuses to sit silently while I carry  on with this important business.  &lt;img src="http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID19272/images/BigHat%281%29.jpg" alt="" align="right" height="800" hspace="5" vspace="5" width="194" /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;A  materialist will say I’m trapped: unable to sever my emotional needs  from a rational investigation.  This critique sounds sensible.   Until I  realized that the idea of a totally detached rationality is impossible,  and that the very impulse to take such an approach to life is  predicated on an emotional preference.  It seems to me an inescapable  fact that we are emotional beings, operating in a world of experiences  that play on those emotions.  Some of us embrace the ride.  Some of us  hate it, and try everything we can to resist the experiences that tug  our emotions this way and that.  Most of us are in-between,  recognizing  the value of emotions in shaping our outlook, creating our values, and  ordering our thoughts.  But also attempting to make good decisions based  on cool-headed reasoning.  The problem comes for those who hate the  emotional manipulation that their hearts perpetrate so much that they  imagine a world where they can be &lt;em&gt;only&lt;/em&gt; rational.  But there is  no “rational way” to interpret reality.  Every interpretation takes  place in time, which means that the aspects of reality we attend to  first are decided based on values.  And values are intrinsically  emotional.  This is not an attack on reason. Obviously there are more  and less reasonable approaches to the interpretation of any particular  aspect of life.  I only wish to be honest about the context in which our  reason operates.  I won’t pretend that a human can shift into some sort  of computer mode where no values guide their rational thoughts.  But I  also won’t fall into the existentialist dogma of individual realities  and subjective truths.  I simply see my reason as guided by certain  ideas and the emotions they evoke.  I recognize that I can cultivate  certain emotions, and seek to purge myself of other emotions.  But  still, there is an underlying value system deep down, that guides my  desire to do so.  This inaccessible core of our being is the programming  that truly makes us who we are.  It may be the product of a strictly  mechanical cause/effect chain, or a divinely implanted soul.  I don’t  know which, (I suspect it’s both) but my extended navel-gazing has led  me to it.  And I see this core emotional component as an inescapable  element of our humanity.  No thoughts, ideas, rationality, philosophies,  religious concepts, morality or any other brain function we have can  operate outside its purview or unguided by its dictates.  And we can’t  fight it.  Why?  Because we don’t WANT to.  What we want is determined &lt;em&gt;by&lt;/em&gt;  it.  Did I just blow your mind?  Don’t worry.  It’s only a theory. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;But  it’s an important element in my larger theory of my motives and my  Christianity.  My investigation has lead me to this internal organizer.   This programming.  This soul.  My “heart” as it turns out, seeks to be  obedient.  Such a word is obviously very loaded with concepts and  emotionally charged.  After all, to be obedient one has to have a master  or authority.  In today’s philosophical climate of self-empowerment and  making one’s own destiny, this idea shrieks out of tune.  Perhaps this  is because obedience can have two different motives. Someone can obey  for their own self-interest: either to avoid punishment, or to receive  rewards.  This form of obedience evokes the image of the weak  minded-fool or pathetic, scraping servant appeasing a loathsome master  or a big-hatted religious leader.  That, or a conniving butt-kisser,  only in it for themselves.  This is not the kind of obedience I feel  drawn to.  My obedience is motivated by love.  Love of the good and the  right and the just.  I’m sure that a lot of non-Christians share this  motivated obedience for the good and the right and the just.  From my  perspective, it is quite accidental that my obedience-based-in-love  should find its instantiation in Christ.  Had I been born in another  place or time I may have placed that obedience in Ra or the Rain Spirits  or my emperor-god.  But as it happens, I wasn’t called by them.  I was  called by Jesus.    &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In the canonized stories of Jesus, the  reports about the way he gathered His disciples all feature a simple  calling.  Jesus says: “&lt;em&gt;Follow me&lt;/em&gt;”, and they follow Him.  But  it’s more than just a few words.   Here’s a passage from &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer" target="_blank"&gt;Dietrich  Bonhoeffer&lt;/a&gt;’s  &lt;u&gt;The Cost of Discipleship&lt;/u&gt;, that sums up,  encapsulates, and supersedes all the other reasons listed in this series  of articles about why I’m a Christian.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;“&lt;em&gt;And as he passed by,  he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax booth, and he said to  him, "Follow me." And he rose and followed him.–Mark 2:14  &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The  call goes forth.  And is at once followed by the response of obedience.   The response of the disciples is an act of obedience, not a confession  of faith in Jesus.  How could the call immediately evoke obedience?   The story is a stumbling block for the natural reason, and it is no  wonder frantic attempts have been made to separate the two events.  By  hook or by crook a bridge must be found between them.  Something must  have happened in between.  Some psychological or historical event.  Thus  we get the stupid question: “Surely the publican must have known Jesus  before and that previous acquaintance explains his readiness to hear the  Master’s call.”  Unfortunately our text is ruthlessly silent on this  point, and in fact it regards the immediate sequence of  call-and-response as a matter of crucial importance.  It displays not  the slightest interest in the psychological reasons for a man’s  religious decisions.  And why?  For the simple reason that the call is  behind the immediate following of call by response, is Jesus Christ  Himself.  It is Jesus who calls.  And because it is Jesus, Levi follows  at once.   The encounter is a testimony to the absolute, direct and  unaccountable authority of Jesus.  There is no need of any  preliminaries.  And no other consequence but obedience to the call.   Because Jesus is the Christ He has the authority to call and to demand  obedience to His word.  Jesus summons men to follow Him not as a teacher  or a pattern of the good life, but as the Christ, the Son of God.  In  this short text Jesus Christ and His claim are proclaimed to men.  Not a  word of praise is given to the disciple for his decision for Christ.   We are not expected to contemplate the disciple.  But only Him who  calls, and His absolute authority.  According to our text there is no  “road to faith” or discipleship.  No other road.  Only obedience to the  call of Jesus.&lt;/em&gt;”&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I feel like Levi.  I feel like I was  called, and I obeyed.  Not because I’m great, clever, mature or in any  way better than anyone else.  (The scheming, lying, cowardly Disciples  of the Gospels should dispel the idea that being called is based on  merit.)  I can analyze my feelings and break down “the calling” into all  sorts of little psychological bits n’ pieces.   I can get all Freudian,  isolate felt needs, develop theories as to how my religious ideas meet  those needs and conclude that the whole thing is a sham.  I can get  Jungian and say my primordial brain is simply responding to archetypes  that dominate my thought.  Being agnostic, I’m open to these theories  and understand their merits.  In fact, I believe them to be true to a  certain extent.  But having answered the call, and attempting to walk in  obedience to Christ, means that I choose a unifying and transcending  interpretation.  As John 12:32 says, Christ draws (drags is a better  rendering of the Greek here: as a fisherman drags a net of fish) me unto  Him.  The “net” I’m caught in is woven from various strands in my life.   The way my parents raised me, the experiences I’ve had, my emotional  and intellectual proclivities, etc.  I will be considered a fatalist by  most, but I believe I simply don’t have a choice in the matter.  &lt;/p&gt;If  life was a laboratory, I suppose I could test this hypothesis by  purposely resisting the net that drags me to Christ.  I could try to  cultivate a dislike for all things Christian, purposely sever  relationships with Christians, and hang out only with smart attractive  people who despise Christianity.   But the fact is that I simply don’t  want to.  I may be completely deluded by my current worldview.  But who  knows, I could also run away from Truth into an opposing worldview that  would delude me.  All I’ve got to guide me here is experience, reason,  logic, intuition and a few other tools that have proven to be miserably  inadequate by thousands of years of recorded history.  Like most people I  pay lip service to logic and reason as the best way for finding Truth.   And like most people I often forget that my logic and reason are  directed and motivated by my emotional desires which spring from my  soul.  And my soul is owned by Christ.&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/8012825-461925009896330029?l=joshuaforeman.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/feeds/461925009896330029/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8012825&amp;postID=461925009896330029' title='1 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/461925009896330029'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/461925009896330029'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/2010/03/why-im-christian-5-jesus-is-special.html' title='Why I’m a Christian 5: Jesus is special'/><author><name>Joshua C. Foreman</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/05522491775240272109</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='26' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_6UY1NhoIgIQ/SA_bxn4x_FI/AAAAAAAAACo/QWknsElPZN4/S220/Josh-Haricut05s.jpg'/></author><thr:total>1</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012825.post-3318286712813924631</id><published>2010-02-25T10:52:00.000-08:00</published><updated>2010-02-25T11:04:46.228-08:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Music'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='art'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Game'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='Poetry'/><title type='text'>Flower</title><content type='html'>A downloadable semi-game on Playstation Network.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It's 10 bucks.  It's worth it.  Made by the same team that made Flow, and it's similar in a lot of ways.  It's got an ethereal darkish ambient soundtrack that you add too with notes that are struck as you collect flower petals.  It's a 3-D world and you are ... the wind... maybe?  you basically fly the camera around and as you pass flowers their petals will blow off into a train of petals that grows longer and longer as you get more flowers.  Blowing over glowing flowers will change the environment in different ways, like turning a patch of brown grass to green or moving Stonehenge-like rock formations, unlocking new areas to explore. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;While this mechanic is a bit odd, it's not really the point of the game.  Flower is closer to a painting that you can fly through.  It truly is interactive art, drawing the viewer in to participate in a vision.  Screen shots really don't do this game justice, as the mood is heavily dependent on the music, whooshing wind sounds as you glide around, the animation of the grass parting as you fly by, and the gradual renewal of the environment.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It's really nice to see an "art game" that is both thought provoking, sense-stimulating and fun at the same time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAQjvuyljZc&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/8012825-3318286712813924631?l=joshuaforeman.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/feeds/3318286712813924631/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8012825&amp;postID=3318286712813924631' title='0 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/3318286712813924631'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/3318286712813924631'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/2010/02/flower.html' title='Flower'/><author><name>Joshua C. Foreman</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/05522491775240272109</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='26' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_6UY1NhoIgIQ/SA_bxn4x_FI/AAAAAAAAACo/QWknsElPZN4/S220/Josh-Haricut05s.jpg'/></author><thr:total>0</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012825.post-1639312270545413882</id><published>2010-02-22T12:22:00.001-08:00</published><updated>2010-02-22T15:46:55.136-08:00</updated><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='narrative'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='movie'/><category scheme='http://www.blogger.com/atom/ns#' term='suicide'/><title type='text'>The Fall</title><content type='html'>&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href="http://www.thefallthemovie.com/"&gt;http://www.thefallthemovie.com/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p&gt;Ran across this movie randomly this weekend.&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p&gt;Absolutely phenomenal cinematography and locations. It's sort of like Big Fish in that it's a person telling tall tales which are shown in an amazing style. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p&gt;It's about an early 1900's stunt man who takes a bad fall on the set, loses the ability to walk, and loses his girlfriend to the leading man. He's stuck in a hospital and a precocious little immigrant girl runs across him and he ends up telling her stories as a hook to get her to bring him pills so he can overdose to kill himself. The actress is amazing 90% of the time. She's not so good at displaying fear or sadness, but her conversations with the stuntman are simply real in ways I can't even imagine how they managed to get the script to work. But it does so brilliantly. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p&gt;It took me two viewings to really understand the ways the real world, the state of mind of the stuntman, and the intrusions of the girl were modifying the tall tale. &lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p&gt;Ultimately, I think the theme is about how every life is a narrative woven with others. The stuntman is resisting this truth as he cuts off relationships in order to justify ending his own story. But as the film progresses the girl asserts more and more power in attempting to make his story better. As he wrestles with this the tale becomes darker and darker, turning on this exchange: (paraphrased)&lt;/p&gt;  &lt;p&gt;Girl: (crying) I don't like this story!&lt;br /&gt;Stuntman: It's my story!  I'll make any way I like!&lt;br /&gt;Girl: No... It's my story too!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div class="blogger-post-footer"&gt;&lt;img width='1' height='1' src='https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/tracker/8012825-1639312270545413882?l=joshuaforeman.blogspot.com' alt='' /&gt;&lt;/div&gt;</content><link rel='replies' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/feeds/1639312270545413882/comments/default' title='Post Comments'/><link rel='replies' type='text/html' href='http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8012825&amp;postID=1639312270545413882' title='1 Comments'/><link rel='edit' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/1639312270545413882'/><link rel='self' type='application/atom+xml' href='http://www.blogger.com/feeds/8012825/posts/default/1639312270545413882'/><link rel='alternate' type='text/html' href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/2010/02/fall.html' title='The Fall'/><author><name>Joshua C. Foreman</name><uri>http://www.blogger.com/profile/05522491775240272109</uri><email>noreply@blogger.com</email><gd:image rel='http://schemas.google.com/g/2005#thumbnail' width='26' height='32' src='http://bp0.blogger.com/_6UY1NhoIgIQ/SA_bxn4x_FI/AAAAAAAAACo/QWknsElPZN4/S220/Josh-Haricut05s.jpg'/></author><thr:total>1</thr:total></entry><entry><id>tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8012825.post-2198330227977672932</id><published>2010-01-25T14:28:00.001-08:00</published><updated>2010-01-25T17:37:05.149-08:00</updated><title type='text'>Debate Dump #2</title><content type='html'>&lt;span xmlns=''&gt;&lt;p&gt;The following is a record of the responses I got from my Examiner article '&lt;a href='http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner~y2010m1d13-Why-Im-a-Christian-4-Utility'&gt;Why I'm a Christian 4: Utility&lt;/a&gt;' on the Atheism forum on Reddit.  I really wish I could get such an extended conversation on a Christian forum, but I haven't found any that will just let people explore ideas without getting shut down or shouted out or just plain banned.  (I've never actually been banned myself as I always strive to follow the community rules.  But I see others who bring up points of view similar to my own getting banned.)  Anyway, I'm not unaware that one is influenced by the communities in which they spend their time.  And even though I am actively debating these atheists it's still surprising how much common ground we share.  It's possible that my world view is being subtly bent to the shape of their hammers since they are the only people who will give me in-depth criticism.  But let me explain why I keep coming back.  First of all, I'm under the impression that if one wants a strong and robust worldview they should subject it to its toughest critics.  In my case, that would be atheists and the conservative religious.  Second, the plurality of voices in a forum ensures a rich mixture of critical style and perspectives.  Of course a lot of it is simply insults or semantic debates, but there is still wheat to be separated from the chaff.  New directions and sources to be explored.  Points that I had never considered.  Etc.  This is the bending that I was referring to.  It's not that I accept everything that they throw at me uncritically.  It's simply that the amount of sources from the atheist/materialist perspective is greater due to the conservative religious forums letting me down.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And without further adieu, here's a lot of words:    &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/pubjames'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;pubjames&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Watch the video. It is kind of f*d up.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I think it is great when parents do different things with their kids, and climbing to the top of a snow covered volcano would be pretty great, and memorable for the kid. But putting rocks in his backpack and making him crawl on hands and knees blindfolded is just weird and bizarre.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;If the guy wants his kid to grow up to be a real man then he should act like a real man himself. Real men don't put rocks in their kids back-packs and force them to crawl on hands and knees. They pick them up when the kids get tired and give them a piggy-back to the top.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a name='c0iryuw'/&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;This is a valid criticism. When I created this ceremony I thought it was important to push my son hard enough that it would be a memorable experience that was challenging enough for him to feel proud of accomplishing. There is definitely a fine line between pushing your kids to achieve, and driving them past brokenness.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;As to how f*d up it is... have you read anything about traditional coming of age ceremonies? If you believe that evolution fitted us with these ideas of manhood, and ceremonies, and provings, and such, than I don't see how you can complain about my incredibly mild ceremony. There's a tribe in South America that weaves hundreds of bullet ants into mittens that they put on the kids, letting them get stung hundreds of times. And they repeat this several times over a period of time. There's and African tribe that ties vines to the kids ankle and they have to jump off the top of huge trees. If their heads don't touch the ground before they bounce they fail the test.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;As to being a man myself, I DID carry the rocks for him after wards. And I've done much more difficult survival training myself when I was younger than him. Giving him a piggy-back ride to the top would have obviously missed the whole point of the exercise.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Voerendaalse'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;Voerendaalse&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I now read some other articles by Joshua Foreman and I just give up. There are so many illogical things in there; I think he just doesn't get it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;For example an article "Do you believe that the Nort Pole is cold" and apparently this should lead to the reasoning "Jesus exists, because so many people tell me so".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I give up and go get ready for work. There's where I can really do something useful.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a name='c0irz04'/&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;haha... Not exactly my argument. That article is about radical skepticism, which I encourage, rather than the half-baked kind that simply rejects what you don't want to think about. None of my article are attempts to prove anything about Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;But thanks for looking!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Voerendaalse'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;Voerendaalse&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Indeed... weird. He needs a third party to make sure he can show his love to his kids and to his wife. He is glad he believes because now he has this god-person to use as this third party.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You cannot believe in a God, just because he can be a nice "tool" in your life. It's nonsense to create such a person in your mind to help you in everyday life, if he just doesn't exist!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Here's the post I put on the blog:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I am an atheist too. And I think that you cannot use this "doesn't God come in handy at some occasions" as an argument to believe in God. I agree that a God-person WOULD come in handy at many, many occasions in life (not only personal, but on a worldwide scale as well)... But he just isn't there, unfortunately.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;So to me, you are creating yourself a God-person in your own brain, and you derive your morals from that and show your love to your kids via that fictual person. I think you could to the same, maybe even better, without that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"He needs a third party to make sure he can show his love to his kids and to his wife".&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;No, not at all. My point is that Christianity provides tools that facilitate that love. They don't generate it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You cannot believe in a God, just because he can be a nice "tool" in your life".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I agree with this. Did you read the first three paragraphs. I thought I was pretty clear about NOT being a Christian simply because it is useful. I think that's a flawed way to approach any belief.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;"&lt;em&gt;I think that you cannot use this "doesn't God come in handy at some occasions" as an argument to believe in God."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I was not making an argument for God. Notice this article is part 4 of a series. This article is about why I'm a Christian, not why there's a God or why Christianity is true. I have no desire to try to convince anyone of those things.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;"&lt;em&gt;So to me, you are creating yourself a God-person in your own brain,"&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;That's totally possible. So what? I'm just a guy doing my best to figure out the mystery that is life. We've come to different conclusions about God. That's fine.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a name='c0iqc6w'/&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/berlinbrown'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;berlinbrown&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I am an Atheist and I used to want to leave Christians alone but this blog makes me sick.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Here is my response:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;"I am an Atheist and I will respond to your post. Your post is absurb. It is filled with your opinion and how you think things should be. It is even hard to respond to.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Without going into detail into your article. People are just people. Just like dogs are just dogs and monkeys are just monkeys. There isn't a real purpose to the madness. We all try to survive and work within a system to make life better."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Humans have better tools to make life better and a rich history to build upon. I don't believe that anyone person has a better life or better answer than the other.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Thanks for your response. And I'm sorry I made you feel ill!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Your post is absurb. It is filled with your opinion and how you think things should be."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I have a feeling you are projecting some bitterness about how Christians have treated you onto me and my article. My opinions are simply my opinions about how I run my life. I'm not trying to force anyone to adopt my methods or beliefs. I'm expressing what I think works for me and my family.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"There isn't a real purpose to the madness&lt;/em&gt;."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You could be correct about this. But in case you are wrong, I'm going to go with my gut and act otherwise. I will believe that every human has purpose, value, and deserves love and respect. And I will teach that to my children. I have a hard time seeing why this would make anyone "sick".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Humans have better tools to make life better and a rich history to build upon."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Agreed. Christianity is certainly a part of that rich history, and I build upon that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I don't believe that anyone person has a better life or better answer than the other".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;So you think a drug addicted child prostitute's life is just as good as college educated personal trainer? I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you simply mean that no person is better than any other, I agree with you! I think we are all equal because we were all created for a purpose. As to answers, I think ones that come closer to Truth are better, and those that are further are worse. If there is no God than most Christian answers will be worse. If Jesus is God, than Christian answers will be better. I don't know which is which. But I believe one, and reject the other, just as you do. We are in the same boat, you and I, guessing our way through a very complex life. I wish you the best, and I hope your not offended that I value you as a human equal to me since I believe God made you and loves you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/berlinbrown'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;berlinbrown&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;"&lt;em&gt;As to answers, I think ones that come closer to Truth are better, and those that are further are worse." "Every human longs for purpose and direction. Some are better at generating or finding these things than others. Christianity provides them."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Think about this, really think about it. There are 6 billion people on the planet. Every decade there will be more and more from the previous decade. Billions and billions of people.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;No one person is better than the other. There is no prize for being nice, there is no real penalty for being mean. Most of us try to live within the society, following the rules so we do not cause further frustration. Most of us do not commit crimes because we do not want to go to jail. But there isn't anything that says that going to jail is bad or not going to jail is good. It just means that you went to jail. For example, sometimes protesters are fighting for some cause and get lock up. Does that mean they are bad people? Probably not.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;We try to find better ways for all of us be better humans and help out each other to advance the human cause. But no one person is required to follow that rule. In fact, a lot of people are cruel and unjust and they aren't punished. Maybe they shouldn't be?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Here is my point, none of us are really special. We all are given the same average lifespan. There aren't any serious penalties for say, "cheating on your wife" or "stealing money from poor people and not getting caught". To be honest, I don't think there should be. I recommend not cheating on your wife because then your divorce will be tough but there isn't any force to stop people or punish people from cheating.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;There aren't any special privileges for being a great person, contributing to science or whatever. It seems that a lot of the great scientists of the past, lived normal lives. Sometimes people only realize their greatness long after they died. It is great that they advanced humanity, but they weren't required to. And neither is anyone else.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Why is being a drug addicted, child prostitute bad? I wouldn't recommend some be a drug-addicted, child prostitute because it will lead to a more difficult life. But what is the penality for being a drug-addicted, prostitute ...outside of breaking the law?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm afraid your point is escaping me. I see the Nitsche Beyond Good and Evil thing your are reiterating. But since we fundamentally differ on whether or not life has purpose imbued by a transcendent being, all this stuff your saying is sort of like me quoting Matthew chapter 5 to you. I realize this is your opinion. I realize you think morals are a human construct that can be dispensed with at will and the ultimate arbiter of goodness is the individual and what makes them happy. I simply disagree with that. I'm not sure what evidence you can proffer that would make your position seem more tenable. It's simply preference.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/berlinbrown'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;berlinbrown&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;We differ on the purpose, but there is no proof that humans have a purpose. There is no evidence that one human lives a better or worse live from the other. And especially, he is not given a better life from some greater force. A human is as special as a monkey as a dog or cat. People are just animals trying to survive on the planet. Or lets get specific. Does any one person live a guaranteed shorter or longer life based on what they do in their life besides maybe thrill-seeking, smoking, etc? Does any one live a happier life?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You can quote Math&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt; "there is no proof that humans have a purpose&lt;/em&gt;."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Right. That's why I said the belief one way or another is simply preference. If you want to believe that it's fine with me. But I don't. So your affirmations about humans being equal to animals simply doesn't have any traction with me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Does any one person live a guaranteed shorter or longer life based on what they do in their life"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I don't think so. I also don't see that as indicative of purpose or purposelessness.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/berlinbrown'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;berlinbrown&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;"&lt;em&gt;So your affirmations about humans being equal to animals simply doesn't have any traction with me."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;It is just fact. When I mean there is no evidence, I mean that you can't make any conclusions. And if you did, what conclusions could you make?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I believe that plants, animals, viruses all exist in the same earth biosphere but that is all.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;"&lt;em&gt;I believe that plants, animals, viruses all exist in the same earth biosphere but that is all."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;And I agree, except for the "that is all" part? When you say this is "just fact." you are simply stating a preference. Neither of us can prove the other wrong no matter how many times we state our preference. That's hardly worth getting upset over, is it?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/berlinbrown'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;berlinbrown&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Look at it this way, if there is a big earthquake tomorrow and all people die. And there are no more humans. Then there is as much purpose in them dying as if they didn't die.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Only if your premise -that there is no transcendent agent bestowing purpose- is true. But if your premise is wrong, than even death has little to do with purpose. If there is life after death, or our consciousness continues in some form, there's no reason to assume that this life is the important one where all purpose finds its focus.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/rooktakesqueen'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;rooktakesqueen&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I pray for my sons every night after I read to them, and every morning on our way to school. I do this out loud, while physically touching them, connecting us, relaying and reinforcing my love and care for them."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Hahahahahaha.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Ahem.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;But no, I think most of the supposed benefits he gains from his Christian faith could be gained in a &lt;em&gt;better&lt;/em&gt; way with no faith at all.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a name='c0irwyu'/&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I thought some pervert might take that the wrong way... ;)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm curious if you have children, and how your parenting differs.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/db2'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;db2&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;"&lt;em&gt;I pray for my sons every night after I read to them, and every morning on our way to school. I do this out loud, while physically touching them, connecting us, relaying and reinforcing my love and care for them."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Or just creeps them out!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Just for the record, I touch their shoulders. Any psychologist will tell you the benefits of physical contact to communication.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;And no, they are not creeped out. Whenever I forget to pray for them, they remind me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/db2'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;db2&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Well the whole thing you're describing there is creeping me out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;edit: I don't mean anything toward you personally, it's the situation that's making my skin crawl.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Oh, ok. I understand. Hunting and going to strip clubs creep me out. Nothing against those who do it. It's just not for me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p style='text-align: center'&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Captain_Midnight'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;Captain_Midnight&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;A person is a Christian because they believe Jesus is the son of God, died on the cross, and was resurrected. That is the oath you take when you become a Christian, and within this oath is the assertion that &lt;em&gt;all other religions are false&lt;/em&gt;. You may have chosen Christianity for &lt;em&gt;additional&lt;/em&gt; reasons, but this oath is required of every one of you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;But your obligation does not end there. You must assert that Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine, cast out demons, and healed the blind and leprous, but deny that Mohammad flew up to heaven in a chariot. You are expected to at least politely disagree when Jews tell you the Messiah has not yet arrived. You are expected to hold your religion above all others -- that there is &lt;em&gt;no path&lt;/em&gt; to the Father but through Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Hopefully, such a bold assertion can be documented. This assertion is necessary because it forms the theological core of your faith. So your documentation needs to be pretty good. Unfortunately, your basis for this assertion is a series of gospels whose traditional history diverges quite a bit from what we've come to know about the actual historicity of the Bible. For example, the author of Mark is to this day undetermined, and it is believed to have been dictated second-hand. These gospels, perhaps because they were written several decades after the events in question, are packed with factual inconsistencies and historical inaccuracies, such as the Slaughter of the Innocents.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;But I'm not here to debate the Gospels. I'm saying that the documentation that backs up the theological assertions you are required to make as a Christian are rather problematic. You are professing your faith on the basis of a book that has been added to, excised, rearranged, re-worded, and inconsistently translated over the course of hundreds of years. A book that also contains favorable depictions of genocide, mass murder, rape, incest, torture, slavery, and human sacrifice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Regardless of my feelings for her (of which I have bucketfuls) I simply don't desire other women because of my deep belief in the way God brings all things to be. I believe he brought us together for good reasons, and no matter how I feel, my faith in that process will keep us together. So my faith brings a stability and security to my marriage that I don't think could exist without appealing to God. This is not to say that an atheist or Buddhist can't have a stable secure marriage. But that stability and security must come from other places, and I don't know of other sources. Will power and loyalty only go so far without an ultimate, ontologically real force to attach them to. (ie God) We used to have social pressure from our families and society to stay married, but that's pretty much gone now. To attempt a lifelong commitment without a transcendent reinforcement seems to me like rock climbing without a rope. If your emotions slip, the firm conviction that there is a God holding you accountable can be all that keeps you going through a rough patch."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;The notions of morality, common sense and impulse control have been around for a lot longer than religion. If they had not been around, the human race would not have survived long enough to write those books in the first place. We were holding &lt;em&gt;ourselves&lt;/em&gt; accountable long before we transferred accountability to supernatural agents.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;But now, you cannot even take credit for the stability of your own marriage. You feel compelled to transfer your accomplishment to a God, since pride is a sin and all glory goes to Him. As you say yourself, you cannot even conceptualize a framework that is not based on this lopsided arrangement. Yet you characterize your situation as &lt;em&gt;empowering&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"the advantage to accepting it is a deeper, more stable moral structure that can be taught to kids easier than abstract tenets backed up by nothing more than a vague notion that we'll all be happier if we follow these rules."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Abstract tenets? What's so abstract about treating people as you wish to be treated, as Confucius wrote five hundred years before the arrival of Jesus? "All men are created equal," a notion derived from the secular philosophies of people like John Locke, Thomas Paine, and Hegel, forms the basis of the American republic. The right to free speech, to reasonable search and seizure, to a speedy trial by a jury of our peers. These sentiments are no less moral because they came from the minds of men instead of the Word of God. They are no more difficult to understand than the parable of the Samaritan, for example, which teaches that a man is not judged by God on the basis of his faith, but by the rightness of his actions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;If you want a modern day version of the Samaritan, I recommend checking out Sweden. They're doing much better than we are, despite their insufficient godlessness.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a name='c0irwer'/&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"That is the oath you take when you become a Christian, and within this oath is the assertion that all other religions are false."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm sure this is true in some form of Christianity. But in my little corner of Christendom that was never a ritual that I've encountered. I've never taken any religious oath. I also reject the idea that "all other religious are false." in a comprehensive or total way. Please understand, I'm an agnostic before I'm a Christian. This distinction will be important as I reply to the rest of your comments.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You must assert that Jesus walked on water, turned water into wine, cast out demons, and healed the blind and leprous, but deny that Mohammad flew up to heaven in a chariot."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You are apparently unaware of the broad range of Christian interpretation. You've got your literalist, inerrantist, young earth creationists like the televangelists. These people are basically the straw men of Christianity. They represent a very small fraction of Christians and Christian belief. On the other end of the spectrum you have scholars like Marcus Borg who deny the literal resurrection of Jesus (along with any other miracles) and consider most of the Bible as redacted materiel. In future conversations with Christians, it might be helpful for you to inquire where on that scale your Christian lands before making arguments that don't apply to their positions as you just have.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You are expected to hold your religion above all others -- that there is no path to the Father but through Jesus."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I do hold Christianity as superior to other religions, and agree that Jesus is the only way to God. I also hold that I could be wrong about any of this, and that I don't have the experience or supernatural wisdom and knowledge to properly ascertain all Truth claims and know which is correct. Also, I am a Universalist Christian, which means I believe every single human that ever lived will be redeemed through Christ. I don't think death is an obstacle to redemption or that some random assertion of some random doctrine is what God wants from us.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Hopefully, such a bold assertion can be documented."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;And it what format would you accept such documentation?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"So your documentation needs to be pretty good."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I guess. But again, since my interpretation of God is about relationship, the documentation is ancillary.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Unfortunately, your basis for this assertion is a series of gospels whose traditional history diverges quite a bit from what we've come to know about the actual historicity of the Bible. For example, the author of Mark is to this day undetermined, and it is believed to have been dictated second-hand."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Yes, I've read many books from very conservative to very liberal scholars on this topic. I don't believe the Bible is inerrant. I believe it's a collection of many different kinds of documents that reflect people's opinions and beliefs. Even many conservative Bibles note where likely redaction took place. I don't need a perfect document in order for some Truth to be present.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"A book that also contains favorable depictions of genocide, mass murder, rape, incest, torture, slavery, and human sacrifice".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Not to mention contradicting visions of an alternating omniscient God with one who changes his mind, needs to come out of heaven to see what's going on, and has business meetings. Like I said. These are obviously perspectives of a society as its theology developed. This is only a problem if you believe every word has to be perfect.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"The notions of morality, common sense and impulse control have been around for a lot longer than religion."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Agreed. And my point was not that I &lt;em&gt;can't&lt;/em&gt; teach my kids morality apart from religion. Only that it provides two very helpful tools. First, a narrative that helps us understand and remember. And second, a transcendent authority that puts us all under a common set of expectations.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"But now, you cannot even take credit for the stability of your own marriage. You feel compelled to transfer your accomplishment to a God, since pride is a sin and all glory goes to Him".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Yeah. Sure. Is that bad? Do I need pride to accomplish something greater?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"As you say yourself, you cannot even conceptualize a framework that is not based on this lopsided arrangement. Yet you characterize your situation as empowering."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Uh... I don't think I said that. I totally see other frameworks for marriage working just fine. I was saying I find the one with a transcendent authority to be superior because it kicks in when our fragile human emotions and will power fail us. That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of good, moral atheists out there with fantastic marriages. I hope every married couple has a blissful marriage whatever their framework.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"What's so abstract about treating people as you wish to be treated, as Confucius wrote five hundred years before the arrival of Jesus?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;What is abstract is its lack of foundation in anything beyond "some guy had this good idea." Your list of wonderful moral ideals is great. I'm not disparaging them in any way. But one thing most of them have in common is their instantiation in government institutions. Governments transcend individuals, so you see the same mechanism in place as moral claims that are rooted in religious systems. The only problem is that governments rise and fall, and with them come and go our freedoms of speech, jury of our peers, etc. The other problem is that governments are not transcendent enough. Without a God, there is no accountability that puts equal pressure on the people and the government. Thus tyranny is always a possibility. I recognize that tyranny is a constant feature of human societies regardless of how religious they are. That is not the point of my argument. My point is that transcendent authority that two parties feel they are under produces superior moral results than when one or both parties feel they are not obligated to a transcendent authority. (As is the case when governments choose to take rights away from their citizens.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"If you want a modern day version of the Samaritan, I recommend checking out Sweden. They're doing much better than we are, despite their insufficient godlessness."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I have read that they are the highest donation per capita society in the world. If so, I would say they are the most Christian nation on earth, regardless of their religious beliefs.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Captain_Midnight'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;Captain_Midnight&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I'm sure this is true in some form of Christianity. But in my little corner of Christendom that was never a ritual that I've encountered. I've never taken any religious oath. I also reject the idea that "all other religious are false." in a comprehensive or total way. Please understand, I'm an agnostic before I'm a Christian. This distinction will be important as I reply to the rest of you comments."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Formally and publicly accepting Jesus as your lord and savior, who died on the cross and was resurrected, &lt;em&gt;is in fact the basis of mainstream Christianity&lt;/em&gt;. If you do not accept those claims, then &lt;em&gt;most mainstream Christians will not consider you a Christian&lt;/em&gt;. Either that, or you're a charismatic, in which case you're in pretty wishy-washy theological territory.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You are apparently unaware of the broad range of Christian interpretation. You've got your literalist, inerrantist, young earth creationists like the televangelists...In future conversations with Christians, it might be helpful for you to inquire where on that scale your Christian lands before making arguments that don't apply to their positions as you just have."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I am very aware that there is a spectrum of people who selectively interpret some aspects of Jesus's life as "metaphorical" or "symbolic" while insisting to me that &lt;em&gt;other&lt;/em&gt; aspects are indisputable, despite being no less extraordinary or fantastic. In future conversations that &lt;em&gt;you&lt;/em&gt; solicit about your religion, perhaps you should be more forthcoming about your denomination and what particular testimony it cherry-picks.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Also, you bewilderingly missed the opportunity to address the very question you brought up. You tell me there are a lot of different kinds of Christians, scold me for not asking you which one you are... and then you proceed to offer no information on that front. Am I missing something?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;I do hold Christianity as superior to other religions, and agree that Jesus is the only way to God.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;I also reject the idea that "all other religious are false."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;By asserting that Jesus is the only way to God, you are, in fact, declaring that all other religions are false, &lt;em&gt;because no other religion besides yours asserts the superiority of Jesus&lt;/em&gt;. You can't have it both ways. Your Assertion A, by its very nature, denies Assertions B through Z.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"since my interpretation of God is about relationship, the documentation is ancillary."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm definitely leaning towards charismatic now. Or are you uncomfortable with the messy parts of the Bible and prefer a spirituality that just makes it a &lt;em&gt;supplementary memo&lt;/em&gt; of some kind? Or are you asserting that you have a direct line to the creator of the universe? Your theology is a little shaky here, my friend.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"These are obviously perspectives of a society as its theology developed. This is only a problem if you believe every word has to be perfect."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Ah, I see, so the unfavorable depictions are "developing theology," but the stuff you like is not. Respectfully, you're starting to lose me here, Josh. Not many people have patience for selection bias.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Only that it provides two very helpful tools. First, a narrative that helps us understand and remember. And second, a transcendent authority that puts us all under a common set of expectations."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;It's not very difficult. When a child does something bad, you punish them. When they do something good, you reward them. We've been doing it for tens of thousands of years, and we never had to write any of it down to keep track. How do I know? Like I said earlier, if we &lt;em&gt;hadn't&lt;/em&gt; been doing it, our species wouldn't have survived long enough to write it down and say God told us to do it. We understand it now as something called "behavioral conditioning." Believing in a god does not make us any more effective at it, and not believing in a god does not make you any less effective at it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Uh... I don't think I said that."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;("Yet you characterize your situation as empowering.")&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Think harder:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I simply don't desire other women because of my deep belief in the way God brings all things to be. I believe he brought us together for good reasons, and no matter how I feel, my faith in that process will keep us together. So my faith brings a stability and security to my marriage that I don't think could exist without appealing to God."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You're not being honest about your own convictions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I totally see other frameworks for marriage working just fine. I was saying I find the one with a transcendent authority to be superior because it kicks in when our fragile human emotions and will power fail us".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;That's a pretty arrogant claim. You're saying that being a Christian makes your marriage indefinably better.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"The only problem is that governments rise and fall, and with them come and go our freedoms of speech, jury of our peers, etc. The other problem is that governments are not transcendent enough. Without a God, there is no accountability that puts equal pressure on the people and the government. Thus tyranny is always a possibility. I recognize that tyranny is a constant feature of human societies regardless of how religious they are. That is not the point of my argument."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Then why mention it? Clearly you have a problem with secular authority. Are you saying that we shouldn't have a separation of church and state?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"My point is that transcendent authority that two parties feel they are under produces superior moral results than when one or both parties feel they are not obligated to a transcendent authority. (As is the case when governments choose to take rights away from their citizens.)"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I see, you're rolling back to the "atheist don't have morals" territory. Or as you would hedge it, "atheists can't be &lt;em&gt;as&lt;/em&gt; moral." &lt;strong&gt;What an incredibly arrogant and insulting assertion.&lt;/strong&gt; You are declaring that the belief in a supernatural agent &lt;em&gt;makes you a better person than me&lt;/em&gt;. "Superior moral results," Josh. You can't hide from wording like that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You apparently cannot accept that a person can be as "good" as you but not have any belief in a supernatural agent. You prefer to think that morality comes from God in the form of the Christian Bible, instead of letting the human race take some credit for its own development.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Such is the mindset of a person who has been taught to believe he is a shameful sinner -- from birth. That his only path to "salvation" from a sin he had nothing to do with is from a religion whose mascot has no more historical authority than Homer's &lt;em&gt;Oddysey&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I have read that they are the highest donation per capita society in the world. If so, I would say they are the most Christian nation on earth, regardless of their religious beliefs."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;How curious that you would co-opt a secular society -- as long as it behaves. But as for Soviet Russia, they failed because they were atheists, right? Piffle. Again, Josh, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"or you're a charismatic, in which case you're in pretty wishy-washy theological territory."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Hahaha... now an atheist is determining what kind of theology is wishy-washy? As to who considers me a Christian... I don't really care about that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"perhaps you should be more forthcoming about your denomination and what particular testimony it cherry-picks."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Ok, fair enough. My little bio on top of the article says: "Josh claims to be a socially conservative agnostic Christian universalist."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Also, you bewilderingly missed the opportunity to address the very question you brought up. You tell me there are a lot of different kinds of Christians, scold me for not asking you which one you are... and then you proceed to offer no information on that front. Am I missing something?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Oh wow... you got me there. I'm pretty sure I meant to explain, but must have forgotten. Sorry! I can make it simple by saying I'm closer to Borg than I am to Jimmy Swaggart. Because I'm agnostic I don't make any absolute claims concerning what did or did not happen in history. I believe that in some manner of speaking Jesus was God. And whatever mechanism for redemption that Jesus represented, He accomplished it. We cool now?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"By asserting that Jesus is the only way to God, you are, in fact, declaring that all other religions are false, because no other religion besides yours asserts the superiority of Jesus. You can't have it both ways. Your Assertion A, by its very nature, denies Assertions B through Z."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I disagree. I used to think that way when I was a fundamentalist. My current belief is that whatever we humans do, say, or believe in this life, we will be set straight by Christ in the next life. Here's a handy chart I made that shows the difference between traditional Christianity, Universalism, and Unitarianism:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/2008/10/unitarianuniversalist-clarification.html'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/2008/10/unitarianuniversalist-clarification.html&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Or are you asserting that you have a direct line to the creator of the universe? Your theology is a little shaky here, my friend."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Heh... again with the theological reprimand! Since I'm not claiming that what I believe is Truth, I don't really see how you can criticize me for not being inside mainstream Christianity. I know I'm not. I never claimed to be. I am who I am and I believe what I believe. If I speak in error feel free to point that out. But knocking me for not being a particular brand of Christian seems like an odd angle for an atheist.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Ah, I see, so the unfavorable depictions are "developing theology," but the stuff you like is not. Respectfully, you're starting to lose me here, Josh. Not many people have patience for selection bias."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Your strategy seems to be the creation of two unappealing boxes for me to fit into. You think I need to be a mainline inerrantist, or a radical wacky cherry picker. I don't fit either of those boxes. To address your question directly: Yes, I believe the depictions of God as less than perfect were developing theology. Most mainline scholars agree with this assessment, it's not some random thing I thought up. The accusation about cherry picking only holds if the verses I choose as "the good ones" are cited as absolute authority. I don't do that. I think the Bible as a whole points in a general direction.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"We understand it now as something called "behavioral conditioning." Believing in a god does not make us any more effective at it, and not believing in a god does not make you any less effective at it&lt;/em&gt;."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I agree that I am doing behavioral conditioning with my children. I don't know if the God element makes it more effective or not, but I think that it does.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"That's a pretty arrogant claim. You're saying that being a Christian makes your marriage indefinably better."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;How is that arrogant? Yes, my faith makes my marriage better. I believe that. What does that have to do with an evaluation of others? I'm not implying that I'm &lt;em&gt;better&lt;/em&gt; than anyone else. I'm saying my faith helps my marriage. You seem to be reading a lot of outside stuff into my words.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Then why mention it? Clearly you have a problem with secular authority. Are you saying that we shouldn't have a separation of church and state?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Ah... I see now. You really do have me read wrong. And no, I'm not saying we should not have a separation of church and state. I love our secular government and wouldn't trade it for any other in history. I love that we are free to be any religion or non-religion we want.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"What an incredibly arrogant and insulting assertion. You are declaring that the belief in a supernatural agent makes you a better person than me."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;No... No I'm not. If I didn't say it in this conversation I've said it at least twice in this thread. I am absolutely sure there are many morally superior atheists to me. My faith makes... are you ready for this... makes &lt;em&gt;me&lt;/em&gt; better than I would be without that faith. As to whether or not it would make &lt;em&gt;you&lt;/em&gt; better... how the hell should I know?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;""Superior moral results," Josh. You can't hide from wording like that".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm not trying to hide. I'm trying to articulate my point fully. And that is this theory that seems true to me: Making moral choices that go against one's interests can be difficult for anyone. Our resources for making those tough decisions are as follows: fear of government punishment, willpower, habit, emotions, fear of supernatural punishment, love of supernatural agent... maybe there are some others I haven't thought of... But the point is that when you remove some of those resources... doesn't it make sense that more moral failings will occur? Does that make me a better person than anyone else? NO! Maybe your reliance on willpower and emotion works better than mine because you have superior willpower and emotion. How can I possibly know that?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You apparently cannot accept that a person can be as "good" as you but not have any belief in a supernatural agent".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Nope. There are plenty of morally superior atheists who are better Christians than I. (As in they embody the teachings and love of Christ.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You prefer to think that morality comes from God in the form of the Christian Bible, instead of letting the human race take some credit for its own development."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Well, I believe God designed the human race to have the dichotomy of our animal instinct in conflict with our longing for moral transcendence. I believe we evolved both through a process that was designed by God. And that He made human psychology such that every so often a great teacher would emerge and instantiate these moral proclivities.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Such is the mindset of a person who has been taught to believe he is a shameful sinner -- from birth."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;If by "shameful sinner" you mean fundamentally selfish, then yeah. I am. It's specifically that animal instinct to take and not give that our moral systems conflict with. I assume you're using the old riff that as a Christian I'm full of shame and guilt and I need God as a crutch for my weak mind. Whatever. I feel guilty when I act selfishly or unloving. My faith helps me course-correct. I'm happy for you if you are a morally grounded person who doesn't need faith to be unselfish and loving. Kudos!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"That his only path to "salvation" from a sin he had nothing to do with is from a religion whose mascot has no more historical authority than Homer's Oddysey."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Since I believe that "salvation" is the destiny of all humans, this doesn't really apply to me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"How curious that you would co-opt a secular society -- as long as it behaves. But as for Soviet Russia, they failed because they were atheists, right?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm not co-opting. I'm describing their actions as Christ-like. And yes, Soviet Russia failed morally when its government starved and killed tens of millions of it's own citizens. I'm not saying that happened &lt;em&gt;because&lt;/em&gt; they were atheist, any more than the travesties that theocracies have brought about happened &lt;em&gt;because&lt;/em&gt; they were religious. I'm saying that's an example of a state not being held to the same standards as its citizens.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Captain_Midnight'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;Captain_Midnight&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You keep bringing up the word "agnostic." It does not mean what you have been apparently taught it means. "Agnostic" is a philosophical position where you believe it's impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God. An agnostic does not believe in any religion. You may be agnostic &lt;em&gt;towards&lt;/em&gt; other ideas, but that is a different matter.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I disagree."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You are free to do so. That does not change the irrefutable theology of your position. Taking Jesus as your lord and accepting that he is the only way to "salvation" necessarily dismisses all other competing theologies, since none of them accept any element of your claim.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I used to think that way when I was a fundamentalist. My current belief is that whatever we humans do, say, or believe in this life, we will be set straight by Christ in the next life."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Which anyone who does not believe in Christ will find offensive, and also kind of arrogant. And unprovable.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"How is that arrogant? Yes, my faith makes my marriage better. I believe that. What does that have to do with an evaluation of others? I'm not implying that I'm better than anyone else. I'm saying my faith helps my marriage. You seem to be reading a lot of outside stuff into my words."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You seem to be revealing sentiments that you do not fully acknowledge.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"My faith makes... are you ready for this... makes me better than I would be without that faith."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You have no comparison with which to make that claim, or at least you have not provided one. Regardless, believing that God exists should not in itself make &lt;em&gt;anyone&lt;/em&gt; a better person. It should have no impact whatsoever on the quality of their character. Furthermore, following the teachings of Jesus to make yourself a better person does not necessarily have anything to do with believing he's the son of God.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Also, you appear to be lying to yourself or me about your arrogance. Because you were clearly not referring to yourself:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"My point is that transcendent authority that two parties feel they are under produces superior moral results than when one or both parties feel they are not obligated to a transcendent authority. (As is the case when governments choose to take rights away from their citizens.)"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;There is nothing specific about this statement whatsoever. You are generalizing to the entire human race. When I pointed this out to you, you claimed you were only referring to yourself. Your assertion is very clearly false. Again, it appears that there is a lot going on in your perception that you are not fully aware of.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Maybe your reliance on willpower and emotion works better than mine because you have superior willpower and emotion."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Willpower and emotion are just aspects of decision making. As I said earlier, behavioral conditioning determines how you react, and you shouldn't need a supernatural agent to validate that conditioning.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You are relying on a crutch that you have been convinced you need as a sinner, Josh. But you are no less valuable than any other human being, and it's not right for anyone to tell you otherwise or even claim they have the right to. You have the right to take credit for your accomplishments and responsibility for your actions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Well, I believe God designed the human race to have the dichotomy of our animal instinct in conflict with our longing for moral transcendence. I believe we evolved both through a process that was designed by God. And that He made human psychology such that every so often a great teacher would emerge and instantiate these moral proclivities."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;If you're going to basically dismiss evolutionary biology, then you're further down the rabbit hole than I thought. Your depiction of supernatural involvement in this process is scientifically offensive, and its factual claims are arrogant assumption. And I notice again that you once again forbid human kind to take credit for its accomplishments by invoking the "great teacher" canard.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;And I can't help but ask: Does God make people gay as well?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You see, once you start attributing human development to God, you can't stop with the characteristics that make you feel warm and fuzzy. You obligate yourself to explain why God would create a homosexual, psychopath, or Glenn Beck. You also deny humanity its involvement in developing itself. You trump both nature and nurture with a supernatural agent.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Or is God's will suddenly unknowable?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I'm not co-opting."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You are free to think so.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I'm not saying that happened because they were atheist, any more than the travesties that theocracies have brought about happened because they were religious."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm sorry, but that statement is not consistent with this one:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"My point is that transcendent authority that two parties feel they are under produces superior moral results than when one or both parties feel they are not obligated to a transcendent authority. (As is the case when governments choose to take rights away from their citizens.)"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Not only is your theology hazy, but your thinking process appears to be clouded by denial.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Response Part 2: Return of the Character Limit&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You are relying on a crutch that you have been convinced you need as a sinner"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Ok. Or... maybe all humans are fragile and require psychological mechanisms for living in complex societies. I'm glad your big and strong and don't need my pathetic mechanisms. Again: kudos!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"you are no less valuable than any other human being"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Yes, I've said we are all equal. Thanks for the pep talk though.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"it's not right for anyone to tell you otherwise or even claim they have the right to."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I don't think anyone has told me I'm less valuable than anyone else. But you sure make me feel that way when you say I need a crutch. ;)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You have the right to take credit for your accomplishments and responsibility for your actions."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Hm... As an atheist I'd be interested in seeing how you justify free will. Hell, I'm a theist and even I don't believe in free will except as a much needed illusion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"If you're going to basically dismiss evolutionary biology"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I didn't dismiss it. I affirmed it. I believe that evolutionary biology is the mechanism that God used to create life and humans. Our only difference is that I don't think it's an accident that we have that little reptile nub in our brain.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Your depiction of supernatural involvement in this process is scientifically offensive, and its factual claims are arrogant assumption."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;There you go getting offended again. Or are you simply channeling "science" and getting offended by proxy? Take it easy, man. I have opinions like everyone else. I'm sure a lot of them are wrong. I'm not holding a knife to your throat and telling you to change yours.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"And I notice again that you once again forbid human kind to take credit for its accomplishments by invoking the "great teacher" canard."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Uh... the great teachers &lt;em&gt;were&lt;/em&gt; human. And exactly what do you want humans to take credit for? According to you our moral systems are the result of random mutation and such. I don't think "random" deserves an award.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;"&lt;em&gt;And I can't help but ask: Does God make people gay as well?"&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Yes. I suppose I should have also noted in my bio that I'm a theistic determinist. I like consistency. Either God is all powerful or He is not. If humans have the power to thwart His will than He is not all powerful.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You obligate yourself to explain why God would create a homosexual, psychopath, or Glenn Beck."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Yes, my theory of everything does obligate me to do so. And I do. I've written extensively on the topic but I'm sure you don't care. I'll just say I believe in the soul making theodicy and leave it at that. You can look it up if you're interested, which you aren't.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You also deny humanity its involvement in developing itself. You trump both nature and nurture with a supernatural agent."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Yep. Sorry to offend you. Don't take it personally.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Or is God's will suddenly unknowable?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;There is no "suddenly" about it. Of course it's unknowable. Everything is unknowable. Unless you have some work around for radical skepticism that I've never heard of. I have my beliefs about what God's will is. Hopes. You know... desires. But that doesn't make them so. Just as your belief that there is no God doesn't make it more or less True.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Not only is your theology hazy, but your thinking process appears to be clouded by denial."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Yes. One thing I can be pretty certain about is that my theology is hazy. As I think it must be if one is attempting to be open-minded and humble. As for my thinking process... Well, I'm hardly in a position to evaluate it myself now am I? If I was in denial I wouldn't be able to recognize it. So I thank you for your critique.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Captain_Midnight'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;Captain_Midnight&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Ok. Or... maybe all humans are fragile and require psychological mechanisms for living in complex societies. I'm glad your big and strong and don't need my pathetic mechanisms. Again: kudos!"&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;No one requires religion, however. They're just conditioned to think that they do, or they don't encounter a perfectly suitable secular system. I keep thinking of Sweden, but you don't seem to be factoring them in.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I didn't dismiss it. I affirmed it. I believe that evolutionary biology is the mechanism that God used to create life and humans. Our only difference is that I don't think it's an accident that we have that little reptile nub in our brain."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;When a natural system explains a phenomenon, there is no reason to apply a supernatural agent to it. There is nothing about evolution that requires a God. At all. Ever. Not even a little bit.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "accident." There are gradual &lt;em&gt;mutations&lt;/em&gt; that are &lt;em&gt;inevitable&lt;/em&gt; when copying information from one area to another, which is basically what you do when you procreate. And I sincerely hope you are not taking "reptile nub" literally. There is nothing reptilian in human DNA. In the context of neurology, "reptile" refers to the R-complex, which is the area of the brain that includes the brain stem and the cerebellum. Scientists refer to it as "reptilian" because reptilian brains are dominated by a brain stem and cerebellum. The human brain includes an additional area, called the neocortex.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"As an atheist I'd be interested in seeing how you justify free will. Hell, I'm a theist and even I don't believe in free will except as a much needed illusion."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I see, you're saying that you can't take credit for it because God made it happen on your behalf already, or he knew it would happen, and therefore you can't take credit? This is a rudimentary perception of omniscience that comes from a linear time perspective. Imagine a God who knows all &lt;em&gt;possible&lt;/em&gt; actions, and knows all outcomes of all possible actions. This is actually much more complex than simply knowing the future. It makes God (or whatever a person chooses to call this force) even more powerful than a deterministic God, while giving you the ability to call your own shots.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"There you go getting offended again. Or are you simply channeling "science" and getting offended by proxy? Take it easy, man. I have opinions like every one else. I'm sure a lot of them are wrong. I'm not holding a knife to your throat and telling you to change yours."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Your opinions in this particular area are offensive, arrogant and presumptuous to a non-theistic person. You have nothing to base your claims on save for a belief that it's &lt;em&gt;just true&lt;/em&gt;. You have come to this conclusion because it pleases you, rather than because it is true or may be true.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Uh... the great teachers were human. And exactly what do you want humans to take credit for? According to you our moral systems are the result of random mutation and such. I don't think "random" deserves an award."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I didn't really say anything of the sort. In fact, I have explicitly said, twice, that our morals are largely the result of behavioral conditioning. These can be indirectly affected by gradual evolutionary processes, I suppose. But evolution works on such a long time scale that our species, which is estimated to be at least a hundred thousand years old, has not been around long enough for evolution to have a substantial effect on our neurology.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;There appears to be a lot you don't know about evolution and natural selection.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;But my objection to your statement was the implication that these "great teachers" were the result of a completely unsubstantiated, supernaturally-induced process that caused them to appear on a cyclical basis. You just can't tell that to a non-theistic person &lt;em&gt;from whom you have requested feedback&lt;/em&gt; and expect them to smile and nod. If you wanted polite respect for mystical notions that lack any kind of evidence, you're in the wrong neighborhood.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Yes. I suppose I should have also noted in my bio that I'm a theistic determinist. I like consistency. Either God is all powerful or He is not. If humans have the power to thwart His will than He is not all-powerful."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Everyone has the power to say no when someone tells them to do something. Clearly, God does not take over your body and mind and force you to do it. But what you don't appear to be addressing is why God would create someone who was designed in a way that would could cause incredible suffering to themselves and the people around them. Why does God let people be born who will starve to death at the age of six, while surrounded by disease, drought, and violence. Why does God allow millions of such people to live lives of brief, intense misery.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;There are answers to these questions, but you will certainly not find them in Christianity. They will instead tell you that God works in mysterious ways.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;But it was God's will that Haiti was essentially destroyed. They're certain of that. Certainly, since God did not &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; will it, he willed it. That is the fatal trap of determinism.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Yes, my theory of everything does obligate me to do so. And I do. I've written extensively on the topic but I'm sure you don't care. I'll just say I believe in the soul making theodicy and leave it at that. You can look it up if you're interested, which you aren't."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I don't know why you would say that, since we've been having an extensive discussion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Also, per theodicy: Have you ever wondered why proving the existence of God is so incredibly complex? Shouldn't such a thing be inherently simple? The problem of course, is that your supernatural agent is so reluctant to make his presence known that it is almost as if he doesn't exist. So the gap between doubt and atheism is filled with circuitous reasoning and belabored thinking, because there is nothing really to go on besides arguments from reason.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Also, to say you ascribe to theodicy is like saying you're a "Christian." Theodicy itself it so circuitous and belabored that it contains a large number of mutually incompatible theories.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"There is no "suddenly" about it. Of course it's unknowable. Everything is unknowable. Unless you have some work around for radical skepticism that I've never heard of."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Oh, you have heard of it. It's the Bible. It lays out God's personality in great detail. Remember the menu? Genocide, mass murder, human sacrifice, incest, et cetera?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Also, you were quite sure what God's will was a second ago:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;_____________________________________________&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I believe that evolutionary biology is the mechanism that God used to create life and humans.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;I believe in the soul making theodicy&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;I believe God designed the human race to have the dichotomy of our animal instinct in conflict with our longing for moral transcendence. I believe we evolved both through a process that was designed by God. And that He made human psychology such that every so often a great teacher would emerge and instantiate these moral proclivities.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;I think the Bible as a whole points in a general direction.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;My current belief is that whatever we humans do, say, or believe in this life, we will be set straight by Christ in the next life.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;I believe that in some manner of speaking Jesus was God. And whatever mechanism for redemption that Jesus represented, He accomplished it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;I believe every single human that ever lived will be redeemed through Christ. I don't think death is an obstacle to redemption or that some random assertion of some random doctrine is what God wants from us."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;_______________________________________________&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I think we can dispense with you backpedaling on God's will, Josh.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Yes. One thing I can be pretty certain about is that my theology is hazy. As I think it must be if one is attempting to be open-minded and humble."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Open-mindedness does not mean entertaining a belief until it has been largely disproven. &lt;a href='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; text-decoration:underline'&gt;Please watch this 10-minute YouTube clip on the subject&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I think you will find it brisk and fairly civil on the subject.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"As for my thinking process... Well, I'm hardly in a position to evaluate it myself now am I? If I was in denial I wouldn't be able to recognize it. So I thank you for your critique."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Sure you are able. You're evaluating it &lt;em&gt;right now&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"No one requires religion, however. They're just conditioned to think that they do"&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;A fine opinion. I could just as easily say: "&lt;em&gt;Everyone requires religion, however. Some are just conditioned to think that they don't." &lt;/em&gt; How do you know you're not just especially well equipped to handle life? How do you know that you won't need it in the future? How do you know that you don't need it now, but are in denial because you find the concept of a God distasteful?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I keep thinking of Sweden, but you don't seem to be factoring them in".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Perhaps not in our little convo. But certainly in this thread. I've called them the most Christian country, twice. If they are feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and caring for widows and orphans at a better rate per capita, they are fulfilling Christ's admonition and description of true religion. I care about fruit, not didactic doctrine affirmation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"There is nothing about evolution that requires a God. At all. Ever. Not even a little bit."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Life from non-life? And even if that was a natural phenomenon, my belief in God is not predicated on a god-of-the-gaps structure. My belief in God is predicated on my family/cultural trajectory, philosophical inquiry, and existential needs.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"There are gradual mutations that are inevitable when copying information from one area to another"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Yes, I understand the word "accident" implies agency. I'm using common parlance here. I can be more technical if you like, but I thought you would understand my meaning.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"And I sincerely hope you are not taking "reptile nub" literally."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;No, not at all. I was just watching Cosmos at lunch and Sagan was pointing to that spot in the brain and using the word reptilian. I understand it's not literal.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"This is a rudimentary perception of omniscience that comes from a linear time perspective."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Yeah... I've been a part of many a debate, and read several books on this subject. I can't do compatibilism simply because of its ramifications for logic and hence communication. I do believe in &lt;em&gt;perceived&lt;/em&gt; compatibilism. I think we were designed to perceive ourselves as moral agents for very good reasons though.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Your opinions in this particular area are offensive, arrogant and presumptuous to a non-theistic person."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Well I guess there comes a point when I have to just say... I can't really apologize for this. I can't believe what you believe. I mean no offense, and I'm a polite person who wishes the best for all. If that's not good enough I don't have any other recourse for propitiation. I assume you understand how offense your statements are to most theists, right? Does this bother you, or do you assume that since your opinion is right, and theirs is wrong, any offense is their own problem?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You have nothing to base your claims on save for a belief that it's just true."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Sure I do. But the basis is dependent on a particular set of assumptions that we don't share. And they are so fundamental that no evidence can be proffered to support either one.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You have come to this conclusion because it pleases you, rather than because it is true or may be true."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;It's a mixture. As I believe it is with everyone.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner%7Ey2009m10d21-Why-Im-a-Christian-2-I-want-to-believe'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner~y2009m10d21-Why-Im-a-Christian-2-I-want-to-believe&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"our morals are largely the result of behavioral conditioning."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm sorry, I thought you were the one that posted the link to the evolutionary biologist's article which makes the case for biological encoding of morals. For the record, I think it's both.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"evolution works on such a long time scale that our species, which is estimated to be at least a hundred thousand years old, has not been around long enough for evolution to have a substantial effect on our neurology."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;This guy disagrees.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://edge.org/3rd_culture/hauser09/hauser09_index.html'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;http://edge.org/3rd_culture/hauser09/hauser09_index.html&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"There appears to be a lot you don't know about evolution and natural selection."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm sure we both have gaps in our knowledge of the field. If yours is superior to mine, Kudos!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"my objection to your statement was the implication that these "great teachers" were the result of a completely unsubstantiated, supernaturally-induced process that caused them to appear on a cyclical basis."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;No. As a determinist I don't think specific interventions are necessary.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You just can't tell that to a non-theistic person from whom you have requested feedback and expect them to smile and nod. If you wanted polite respect for mystical notions that lack any kind of evidence, you're in the wrong neighborhood."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Well, I didn't say what you thought I said. And I'm not expecting a smile and a nod. I've posted on here for a long time now. I know the drill. I come here for the harshest criticism I can find.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Clearly, God does not take over your body and mind and force you to do it".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;He doesn't have to. Determinism is not predicated on possession. It's predicated on a cause/effect string that goes back to the big bang. If you are a naturalist you have no way of interjecting free will into the mix. If all our thoughts and emotions are chemical and electrical processes they are caused by physical mechanisms and their effects are determined. It simply happens at a scale, both numerically and physically, that is too intense for us to conceptualize. You can try to escape it by multiverses and quantum dichotomies but ultimately if you succeed you've just broken logic and the basis for rational communication.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"But what you don't appear to be addressing is why God would create someone who was designed in a way that would could cause incredible suffering to themselves and the people around them."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;That's what the soul making theodicy does. It's quite a simple concept, and I've covered it in a very, very long book review here if you're interested.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/2008/12/book-review-john-hick-evil-and-god-of.html'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/2008/12/book-review-john-hick-evil-and-god-of.html&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"But it was God's will that Haiti was essentially destroyed."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I previously insisted in theistic determinism. My stance is that &lt;em&gt;everything&lt;/em&gt; that happens &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; God's will. Including things that we find terrible and horrible and evil. That's only a problem if this life on earth is all there is, and there is no compensatory mechanism after death.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"That is the fatal trap of determinism."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Why is that fatal?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Have you ever wondered why proving the existence of God is so incredibly complex? Shouldn't such a thing be inherently simple?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Yes. I've wondered. Then I realized how stupid it is to try to prove God exists. I don't do that. Should it be simple? If a God exists, He &lt;em&gt;obviously&lt;/em&gt; doesn't want to be proven. I don't see that as evidence for or against His existence.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"So the gap between doubt and atheism is filled with circuitous reasoning and belabored thinking, because there is nothing really to go on besides arguments from reason."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Well, your bleak adjectives aside, I essentially agree with you. The concept of God takes place within the arena of the interpretation of the world and us humans. There are interpretations that exclude God, and ones that include God. I happen to find the most satisfying one in the later group.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Also, to say you ascribe to theodicy is like saying you're a "Christian.""&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm sorry, I should have capitalized the "Soul Making" part of that sentence. It indicates the precise theodicy I was referring to.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"It's the Bible. It lays out God's personality in great detail."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;"the" Bible (Not sure which one you are referring to) gives a lot of cultural perspectives on God. I approach it critically and don't assume every word is revelation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Also, you were quite sure what God's will was a second ago:"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I will speak carefully here. I am not &lt;strong&gt;sure&lt;/strong&gt; about anything. The thing of which I am most convinced is that I know nothing. I have beliefs, opinions, feelings, etc. But I refuse to declare any of them as absolute Truth. I, as a human, am in no place to do so. I am here, conversing with you because I love ideas. I love comparing ideas. I love criticizing ideas and having mine criticized. Your lists of my beliefs are not declarations about what I am sure of. That is why I am generally very careful to start declarative sentences with words like "I believe", "I think", "it seems to me", etc.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I think we can dispense with you backpedaling on God's will, Josh."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm not convinced that you understand my fundamental epistemological position. There is no backpedaling going on. I have beliefs, just like you do. I simply strive for the humility to acknowledge my limited perspective and the ramification that has on my beliefs.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Open-mindedness does not mean entertaining a belief until it has been largely disproven. Please watch this 10-minute YouTube clip on the subject. I think you will find it brisk and fairly civil on the subject."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Thank you. It was very enjoyable. And I totally agree with it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Captain_Midnight'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;Captain_Midnight&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"A fine opinion. How do you know you're not just especially well equipped to handle life? How do you know that you won't need it in the future?"&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;As I've been telling you, there is nothing about religion that makes a person better equipped than anyone else.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"How do you know that you don't need it now, but are in denial because you find the concept of a God distasteful?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I think you misunderstand. I find it distasteful to live my life on the basis of a claim that has no evidence or argument that establishes a factual basis for that claim. Within this framework, it is not possible for me to be in denial. Respectfully, it appears that one cannot say the same for you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Determinism is not predicated on possession. It's predicated on a cause/effect string that goes back to the big bang. If you are a naturalist you have no way of interjecting free will into the mix. If all our thoughts and emotions are chemical and electrical processes they are caused by physical mechanisms and their effects are determined. It simply happens at a scale, both numerically and physically, that is too intense for us to conceptualize."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Cause and effect is only linear in retrospect. And you still don't seem to grasp the importance of behavioral conditioning.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I previously insisted in theistic determinism. My stance is that everything that happens is God's will. Including things that we find terrible and horrible and evil. That's only a problem if this life on earth is all there is, and there is no compensatory mechanism after death."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I would certainly agree. You don't appear to appreciate the full implications of your own conclusion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"There are interpretations that exclude God, and ones that include God. I happen to find the most satisfying one in the later group."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I take that to mean that you gain psychological satisfaction from the concept of a supernatural agent, and perhaps psychological discomfort with absence of an agent. I hope you realize that this will inevitably lead to cognitive dissonance that will cloud your judgement. Specifically, selection bias. You decide that a thing is probably true simply because you &lt;em&gt;want&lt;/em&gt; it to be true.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm not saying that I'm never guilty of that myself, but you don't seem to be aware of this problem.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"That is why I am generally very careful to start declarative sentences with words like "I believe", "I think", "it seems to me", etc."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Except when you declare that religious people behave better than non-religious people, simply because they are religious.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I'm not convinced that you understand my fundamental epistemological position. There is no backpedaling going on. I have beliefs, just like you do. I simply strive for the humility to acknowledge my limited perspective and the ramification that has on my beliefs."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm not convinced that your epistemology is concrete enough for you to be making the claims that you are. Particularly because of how you seem to know what God wants in one instance, but not know when the implications of that knowledge undermine the benevolence of your god. Or, as when I mention the horrific behavior of the Old Testament, you basically dismiss it as a theological work in progress. I think the Jews would disagree with that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Thank you. It was very enjoyable. And I totally agree with it."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;No, you don't, and the trouble is that you don't see why.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Your "open-mindedness" incorporates supernatural agents, divine miracles, an immortal afterlife, a god fiddling with human genetics, and several other elements that are completely unprovable and essentially fantastic. By asserting that Jesus is the Son of God, you are asserting that God exists, and that Jesus performed all of those miracles attributed to him in the Bible, and is waiting to give you a warm, fuzzy hug when you die and go up to an eternal paradise. In so doing, you are really only open-minded about Christianity. Unless it involves the Trinity. Unitarians don't buy into that, either, from what I understand. So really, you're not even open-minded about Christianity, since the Trinity is a fundamental facet for about two billion of you. I'm not saying that they're right because they're in the majority. I'm saying that's a lot of people to not be open-minded towards.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You're also not open-minded toward Islam, which does not believe that Jesus was the son of God and even depicts him in the Koran as a liar, albeit a repentant one and a prophet. You're not open-minded about any religion that does not worship Jesus. You have chosen your side, to the point of basing your perception of reality on it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;For example, you are not open-minded to the notion of evolution, or the creation of the universe, as a purely natural process, despite the overwhelming supporting evidence. You are, in fact, in disagreement based on objectively &lt;em&gt;less-convincing data&lt;/em&gt;. Less convincing because your supernatural claims about it cannot be tested, reproduced, or falsified.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You are not open-minded about secular societies being equally as capable as religious ones. You are not open-minded about free will. So far, you have demonstrated far more things that you disagree with (with factually baseless supernatural arguments), than you are "open-minded" about.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"As I've been telling you, there is nothing about religion that makes a person better equipped than anyone else."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I know you've been telling me that. I respectfully disagree. Affirmation one way or the other is pointless without evidence. All of my evidence is anecdotal or existential, so I understand why you don't accept it. I'm not asking you to. I'm just explaining myself.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Within this framework, it is not possible for me to be in denial"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I agree. I disagree with your fundamental framework. It's possible that your framework for interpreting reality is imperfect, and if there is an aspect you are not accounting for, you can indeed be in denial. I'm not making that claim, mind you. Only stating it's possibility.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Respectfully, it appears that one cannot say the same for you."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You're right. I could be in denial. I'm sure I deny plenty of facts without even realizing it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"you still don't seem to grasp the importance of behavioral conditioning."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I have no strong argument with your assertion about the power of behavioral conditioning. But that has nothing to do with determinism. If all actions are determined, so is the behavioral conditioning.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You don't appear to appreciate the full implications of your own conclusion."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Please fill me in. I'm here to learn!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I hope you realize that this will inevitably lead to cognitive dissonance that will cloud your judgement."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Cognitive dissonance is caused by holding two contradicting ideas simultaneously. What contradicting ideas are you saying I am or will be holding?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Specifically, selection bias. You decide that a thing is probably true simply because you want it to be true."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;And this does not apply to an atheist? We aren't talking about facts within the context of consensus like the size of the earth here. We are talking about fundamental assertions about an unprovable being. I want one to exist. There is no controverting proof. There is a compelling framework for interpreting the universe and our place in it that includes God.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You don't want there to be a God. There is no controverting proof. There is a compelling framework for interpreting the universe and our place in it that does not God.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;In this position we are left with nothing BUT preference determining the direction of our thoughts. Outside of this context neither of us applies &lt;em&gt;I wish&lt;/em&gt; or &lt;em&gt;I want&lt;/em&gt; thinking to our observations. But within the context of interpretation or synthesis we are back in the world of preference because we have to make judgment calls which are based on our values.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"you don't seem to be aware of this problem."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm exceedingly aware of it. I've written on it at length. I don't like it any more than you do, but I've accepted this limitation as part of being a human with flawed senses and reasoning capabilities. Why don't you join me rather than pretending you are on some fictional perch from which you can survey all of reality, making your declarations of absolute truth?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Except when you declare that religious people behave better than non-religious people, simply because they are religious."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Not "simply because", and not "religious". It's the transcendent reality part that's important. In my opinion. I just realized that secular, governmental authority fills this gap for most situations. Most citizens recognize the transcendent authority can come and put them away if they transgress. So they don't. And many mistake this compliance for morality. The true test of course is what you do when no one's looking. And at that point, I submit, a belief in a &lt;em&gt;truly&lt;/em&gt; transcendent authority will increase morality. In my opinion. Feel free to call that arrogant if you like.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I'm not convinced that your epistemology is concrete enough for you to be making the claims that you are."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Haha... My epistemology is this: "The thing of which I am most certain is that I Know nothing." It's quite simple and the ramifications are pretty plain.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Particularly because of how you seem to know what God wants in one instance, but not know when the implications of that knowledge undermine the benevolence of your god."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I never said I "know what God wants". I said I have beliefs. Why are you having such difficulty with this? I believe God wants certain things. I don't know that because ^see above^.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Or, as when I mention the horrific behavior of the Old Testament, you basically dismiss it as a theological work in progress. I think the Jews would disagree with that."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Heh... I'm sure that they would. After all, it &lt;em&gt;was&lt;/em&gt; their opinion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;As an aside, I should point out that if God indeed was accurately rendered there would be two potential ramifications for my belief system that turn out not to be all that revelatory. 1. It would not change how "good" God is, in the sense that He made us all mortal and subject to death and pain. He is ultimately responsible for every death, so His command to slaughter, rape and maim are all within that system. Again, a compensatory mechanism in the afterlife is all that is required to justify any horrific life and death. Second, it would remove God from the position of moral role-model. A revelation that I've already dealt with. Even a simply parent analogy works for this: Mom and dad can have sex with each other, yet it's morally wrong to little-Billy and little-Susan to have sex with each other. A Judge can sentence you to prison, your neighbor cannot. There are states of being that affect what actions are moral, and God occupies one we do not.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Your "open-mindedness" incorporates supernatural agents, divine miracles, an immortal afterlife, a god fiddling with human genetics, and several other elements that are completely unprovable and essentially fantastic."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Actually, the genetics fiddling is not among my beliefs. He has no need to "fiddle" He determined all before He spoke the universe into being. IN MY OPINION!!! Now, for improvable and fantastic, yeah. So? That means they can't be True? You believe that either the universe always was or that it came out of nothing. Both improvable and fantastic. So what?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"By asserting that Jesus is the Son of God, you are asserting that God exists, and that Jesus performed all of those miracles attributed to him in the Bible, and is waiting to give you a warm, fuzzy hug when you die and go up to an eternal paradise."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Again, let's make it clear we are talking about &lt;em&gt;my beliefs&lt;/em&gt;. I'm not saying these things are True. I'm saying I think they are true. But go on...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"In so doing, you are really only open-minded about Christianity."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;My goal is to apply the same criteria of evaluation to as many beliefs that I can. Am I &lt;em&gt;more&lt;/em&gt; open to Christian ideas? Yes. Am I completely closed to other ideas? No.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I'm saying that's a lot of people to not be open-minded towards."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm not sure what your point is. I have beliefs that include some ideas and exclude most. Isn't that the way it is for all humans?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You have chosen your side, to the point of basing your perception of reality on it."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Yes. In a sense. On a continuum of how settled I am on any one idea, I'd say I'm quite up in the air. But I accept your charge.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"For example, you are not open-minded to the notion of evolution, or the creation of the universe, as a purely natural process, despite the overwhelming supporting evidence."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Oh, now you're just being silly. There is no conclusive evidence either way. No one even has a testable theory about either.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You are, in fact, in disagreement based on objectively less-convincing data."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Well of course it's less convincing to you. You dismiss transcendent agency out of hand. With no more evidence than I. With only your preference to guide you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Less convincing because your supernatural claims about it cannot be tested, reproduced, or falsified."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Neither can your basic assertion about the absence of God.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You are not open-minded about secular societies being equally as capable as religious ones."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Well you are wrong about that one. I'm totally open to that. I don't find "religion" in general as a very positive influence.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You are not open-minded about free will."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Now you're just listing my beliefs. What are you trying to establish here? That I have opinions? Really? You just typed that much just to tell me I have opinions? Maybe you think my highest moral icon is open-mindedness? It's not. Like you, I think being correct is more important. But I recognize open-mindedness as a necessary step (one that must be repeated frequently) to Truth.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I mean it all really comes down to this. IN MY OPINION!!! We are two guys stuck in tiny malfunctioning machines with meat computers trying to figure out what the hell we are and what this world's all about. Our meat computers have been shown to be full of errors and misdiagnoses. Our senses are all suspect. Our tools may or may not be picking up all that there is of the world. I'm saying, "Hey! This interpretation works for me! As far as I can tell it's internally consistent and doesn't contradict what our faulty senses and tools are telling us. Check it out. Let me know what you think." If I'm a nut, dismiss me as such. I'm fine with that. I don't Know anything. (I just claim that you don't either.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Response Part 1&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;""Agnostic" is a philosophical position where you believe it's impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;That is my position. Why don't you believe me?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"An agnostic does not believe in any religion."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;This does not follow. And agnostic can believe in anything. They simply acknowledge the impossibility to prove their beliefs. As I do. You can extrapolate the idea into any sphere of life from politics to art.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Taking Jesus as your lord and accepting that he is the only way to "salvation" necessarily dismisses all other competing theologies, since none of them accept any element of your claim."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Here is my problem with your version of theology. (And fundamentalists as well.) In order to establish precise definitions for the words that theology must use, one must seek an ever diminishing pool of consensus. I'm sure you understand that language is symbol. I mean, the sounds our throat, vocal cords, mouth, tongue, etc. make are meaningless aside from a socially constructed consensus that determines what those sounds signify. There is an easily accessible consensus for nouns like "man", "dog", and "toilet plunger". But things start to get hazy when you venture into verbs. When does one stop "jogging" and start "running"? At what point does a "hop" become a "jump". The reason we have the gray area is because consensus is starting to break down because individuals have to make judgment calls. Now venture into the world of adjectives and you will find some radically divergent opinions. I find my favorite music "moving", "beautiful", "somber", "exiting" and such, and most others find it "annoying", "awful", "depressing", etc. We can all be pointing our words at the same signified with contradicting signifiers. Such is the inevitable state for things that are subject to interpretation. Now, beyond adjectives we have words that are necessary to use when we talk philosophy and theology, and these are even more contentious and difficult to nail down because consensus is so scattered. Words like "God", "eternal", "salvation", etc. have millions of shades of interpretation. So that when you and I have a conversation about these things our minds could be in completely different places. Our signifiers are the same, but our signified is completely different.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;This is your fundamental error when you accuse me of being exclusionary or of having wishy-washy theology. The fact is that ALL theology and philosophy is "wishy-washy" in the sense that most of the words suffer from very little consensus. When I, or the Bible says Jesus is the only way to God, that can mean SO many different things it's not even funny. You seem to think that whatever &lt;em&gt;your&lt;/em&gt; particular interpretation of this statement is must be the correct one. Just like the exclusionary fundamentalists. Well I reject that. I'm not playing that game. I'm acknowledging the epistemological dilemma that hounds all thought and communication. That is why I'm agnostic. I am humble enough to recognize that my particular assumptions about what those words mean could be absolutely wrong.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;So when you say that a statement about Jesus' necessity for salvation is arrogant and exclusionary, you are speaking as though any of us know what those words actually mean. We don't! I could be wrong and maybe God damns most people to eternal torment for not being lucky enough to believe a specific set of doctrines. You could be right, and there is no God. We could both be wrong in ways we can't imagine because we are talking about stuff that is so far over our heads it would like pre-preschoolers debating foreign policy or quantum physics.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Which anyone who does not believe in Christ will find offensive, and also kind of arrogant. And unprovable."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Again... I believe every human will eventually find God and salvation. (whatever that means.) Not sure how anyone could be offended by that. But if anyone &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; offended by my beliefs, I don't see how that should shape my thinking. I'm sure you are aware that many of your beliefs offend a lot of people, right? (Not me, personally.) As to arrogance... Are you saying that a belief that claims one thing is correct, and others are incorrect is arrogant? If so, how do you handle the accusation of arrogance? You claim there is no God, which excludes the possibility of a God. Is that arrogance? Or opinion? As to unprovability... Well duh. I've never tried to prove it. That would be ridiculous.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You seem to be revealing sentiments that you do not fully acknowledge."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Well I know that the human mind is incapable of all sorts of trickery and sublimation and such. One of the main reasons I'm here, talking to lots of atheists is to reveal as much of that sort of stuff as possible. So I appreciate your time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"believing that God exists should not in itself make anyone a better person."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;That's a fine opinion... but how can you possibly back that up with evidence any more than I can back up my claim that my faith makes my marriage better? You can look at broad societal trends, but there are so many other factors in a society besides religion that I can't imagine a way you could make any conclusions from that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Also, you appear to be lying to yourself or me about your arrogance. Because you were clearly not referring to yourself:"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Ok, to be clear, I'm responding to about a dozen different people throughout the day, and it's hard to keep a flow of a single conversation. If I have been deceptive, I apologize, and assure you it was not my intent and probably happened due to poor organization of thoughts, not any duplicitous intent. My purpose here is to learn, not to preach or teach.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"There is nothing specific about this statement whatsoever. You are generalizing to the entire human race."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Yes. You are correct. I'm making a general claim that applies to all people in general. But I insist that this is not the same as saying that any particular individual -such as yourself- is inferior based on this theory. It's like saying that, in general, Asians are good at math. That doesn't mean that all Asians are good at math, or that all non-Asians are horrible at math. It's simply a demographic. My contention is that two parties who truly consider themselves as being under a transcendent authority will fair better in the long run. This does not mean that all those types will, or that all those who do not acknowledge such authority are doomed. It is simply a demographic theory that I believe. I think to deny this is to deny basic psychology. But you're free to do so. (I'm also not a psychologist, so I could be totally wrong!)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"behavioral conditioning determines how you react, and you shouldn't need a supernatural agent to validate that conditioning."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Maybe, maybe not. Maybe there is more to the equation than behavioral conditioning. Maybe not. I stated my belief, and you've stated yours. I don't think either of us has any sort of data to bring to the table, so I suppose there's no further this particular line of debate can go.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Captain_Midnight'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;Captain_Midnight&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"That is my position. Why don't you believe me?"&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Because you have said quite explicitly that you believe Jesus is the Son of God. Therefore, the existence of God is proven to you. There is no definition of agnosticism that allows your claims.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"In order to establish precise definitions for the words that theology must use, one must seek an ever diminishing pool of consensus."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Let's not go there. What you're struggling with has pre-existing and quite sufficient counter-arguments that I don't have the time or interest to educate you on. If you don't understand it, I can't let that be my problem. It has to be yours.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"That's a fine opinion... but how can you possibly back that up with evidence any more than I can back up my claim that my faith makes my marriage better? You can look at broad societal trends, but there are so many other factors in a society besides religion that I can't imagine a way you could make any conclusions from that."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;But you're not really incorporating other factors into your argument. In the world view that you have presented, believing in God necessarily makes a person "better," and not believing in God necessarily limits that person in a way that you have yet to really define. This is one of the problems with unitarianism. While its doctrine is wide, it is also shallow.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"If I have been deceptive, I apologize, and assure you it was not my intent and probably happened due to poor organization of thoughts, not any duplicitous intent. My purpose here is to learn, not to preach or teach&lt;/em&gt;."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I think you may be convincing &lt;em&gt;yourself&lt;/em&gt; of certain poorly supported, unsupported, or debunked theories.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Yes. You are correct. I'm making a general claim that applies to all people in general. But I insist that this is not the same as saying that any particular individual -such as yourself- is inferior based on this theory. It's like saying that, in general, Asians are good at math. That doesn't mean that all Asians are good at math, or that all non-Asians are horrible at math."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You made an &lt;em&gt;absolute&lt;/em&gt; claim. Let's go over it again:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"My point is that transcendent authority that two parties feel they are under produces superior moral results than when one or both parties feel they are not obligated to a transcendent authority."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;There is nothing &lt;em&gt;generalized&lt;/em&gt; about this statement. It does not make or imply an exception. You even repeat it:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"My contention is that two parties who truly consider themselves as being under a transcendent authority will fair better in the long run."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;While not understanding that its phrasing makes no exceptions:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"This does not mean that all those types will, or that all those who do not acknowledge such authority are doomed."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Actually, Josh, that is &lt;em&gt;exactly&lt;/em&gt; what you are claiming. You are making absolute statements. When I repeat these statements to you and tell you what you what it really means, you insist that your statement don't contain claims actually apply to everyone. When they clearly do.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;There is a very important phrase you are missing in every single instance:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I believe."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I would still attack your preposterous claim. The problem is that your phrasing doesn't even acknowledge it as an &lt;em&gt;opinion&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Maybe, maybe not. Maybe there is more to the equation than behavioral conditioning. Maybe not. I stated my belief, and you've stated yours. I don't think either of us has any sort of data to bring to the table, so I suppose there's no further this particular line of debate can go".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Oh, there is quite a bit of data. For one, millions of years of archeological and paleontological record, not to mention about a century of psychiatry, plus neurology and anthropology. "Any sort of data," Josh? Really?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Tell me, what are &lt;em&gt;your&lt;/em&gt; claims based upon? The Bible, is it? Or something your pastor told you? Or something one of your community members just kind of &lt;em&gt;figured out&lt;/em&gt;, and it clicked with you? Because you certainly aren't consulting millions of years of archeological and paleontological record, not to mention about a century of psychiatry, plus neurology and anthropology. Because if you were, you would be coming to a much different conclusion. One based on, you now, &lt;em&gt;evidence&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;This particular area of our disagreement is not a "my word versus yours" conflict. It is, once again, arrogant to put your hazy theology on the same footing as hundreds of years of scientific evidence. There are some things your religion does not cover, and you end up looking foolish when you stretch your God tarp to cover it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"you have said quite explicitly that you believe Jesus is the Son of God. Therefore, the existence of God is proven to you."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Not every belief can be predicated on absolute certainty. I can swing on an old rope swing that may break, but still believe it will hold. I told you that I am a radical skeptic. I don't think any true Knowledge is possible. Everything we think we know is on a continuum of certainty. Did I quote this atheist for you yet?:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;"Gnostic atheist = Someone who believes there is no god, thats it, nothing more&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Agnostic atheist = Someone who has no belief in a god but doesn't believe there can't be one. Nothing more&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Agnostic theist = Someone who believes in a god but does not say there definitely is one. Nothing more&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Gnostic theist = Someone who believes there is a god. Nothing more."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm not the only person in the world who recognized the category of agnostic theist.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Let's not go there. What you're struggling with has pre-existing and quite sufficient counter-arguments that I don't have the time or interest to educate you on."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm not struggling with anything. I'm stating a fact about the nature of language. It works as a signifier/signified system. Consensus is broad for nouns, get's murkier with verbs and adjectives, and becomes absolutely fragmented with theological and philosophical words. I know your binary, science oriented mind doesn't like that, but it's reality. If you are frustrated, or feel this conversation is like wrestling in the mud, it's because of this fact. I didn't make it up, it's not my fault!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"But you're not really incorporating other factors into your argument. In the world view that you have presented, believing in God necessarily makes a person "better,"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I hope I never said that, and that you are interpolating my words with your assumptions about what I mean. There are some awful, terrible bastards who believe in God. Whether or not they would be worse without that belief is beyond anyone's knowledge.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"and not believing in God necessarily limits that person in a way that you have yet to really define&lt;/em&gt;."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I thought I was clear. I think that when two parties both consider themselves to be under a transcendent authority, there is an added psychological layer that can help when will power fails. If one or both parties doesn't take this seriously, the safety net is gone. This does not mean that every person needs this, simply that it can be helpful. As I said, some have very strong will power and don't need the safety net. Kudos to them!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"This is one of the problems with unitarianism. While its doctrine is wide, it is also shallow."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I find it vastly entertaining that an atheist is making these kinds of theological determinations. And for the record, I'm a Universalist, not a Unitarian. I made a chart to help:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/2008/10/unitarianuniversalist-clarification.html'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;http://joshuaforeman.blogspot.com/2008/10/unitarianuniversalist-clarification.html&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I think you may be convincing yourself of certain poorly supported, unsupported, or debunked theories."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm sure I'm full of them! But I'm working on it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You are making absolute statements. When I repeat these statements to you and tell you what you what it really means, you insist that your statement don't contain claims actually apply to everyone. When they clearly do."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm not sure how we are still talking past each other here. If it is due to my own stupidity I apologize.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"There is a very important phrase you are missing in every single instance: "I believe.""&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Hrm.... I'm generally pretty good at inserting those. (check my last reply to you for evidence) But yes. Every opinion I express is a belief. Not a statement of fact.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I would still attack your preposterous claim. The problem is that your phrasing doesn't even acknowledge it as an opinion."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I kind of feel the entire tone of my writing implies that. But I could be deaf to my tone. I would ask you though... when have you ever said "I believe" before an assertion in our conversations?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Oh, there is quite a bit of data. For one, millions of years of archeological and paleontological record, not to mention about a century of psychiatry, plus neurology and anthropology. "Any sort of data," Josh? Really?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You just wrote a list of things. None of which is evidence that "&lt;em&gt;you shouldn't need a supernatural agent to validate that conditioning.&lt;/em&gt;" You are making an existential claim about felt needs. It's like if I gave you a list as follows: "the Bible, Jesus, the Nicean creed, Augustine." Unless you have some specific data - not simply fields of study - I have nothing to go on.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Tell me, what are your claims based upon? The Bible, is it? Or something your pastor told you? Or something one of your community members just kind of figured out, and it clicked with you?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'm sure it's a mixture of all these things.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Because you certainly aren't consulting millions of years of archeological and paleontological record, not to mention about a century of psychiatry, plus neurology and anthropology. Because if you were, you would be coming to a much different conclusion. One based on, you now, evidence."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Ok. Point me towards the evidence. I can't very well type in "neurology" or "anthropology" to Google and see what you're talking about.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;And now please, tell me how this comment is not arrogant. It sounds to me like you are saying that if one is as smart and educated as you are, they will believe the same thing as you. I don't think this is epistemologically sound.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"It is, once again, arrogant to put your hazy theology on the same footing as hundreds of years of scientific evidence. There are some things your religion does not cover, and you end up looking foolish when you stretch your God tarp to cover it."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I've been talking about applying a particular philosophical/theological perspective to child rearing. If there is evidence that this is damaging or wrong, I'd like to see it. (No, "hundreds of years of scientific evidence" is not specific enough.) I've expressed my opinions about some basic psychological premises involving morality and relationships. I hardly think that can be counted as arrogant.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Captain_Midnight'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;Captain_Midnight&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I told you that I am a radical skeptic."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Respectfully, your statements in this thread have put you about as far from "radical skeptic" as a person of sound mind could be.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I'm not the only person in the world who recognized the category of agnostic theist."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Again, you say that Jesus is the Son of God. You cannot make that statement unless God's existence has been proved to you. Additionally, you believe in a specific God, the Abrahamic one. There is no "nothing more" in your belief system. At all.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I'm not struggling with anything. I'm stating a fact about the nature of language. It works as a signifier/signified system. Consensus is broad for nouns, get's murkier with verbs and adjectives, and becomes absolutely fragmented with theological and philosophical words. I know your binary, science oriented mind doesn't like that, but it's reality. If you are frustrated, or feel this conversation is like wrestling in the mud, it's because of this fact. I didn't make it up, it's not my fault!"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;"Science oriented." That's an interesting way to put it. I have some scientific knowledge, and I believe that a supernatural claim must be backed up by evidence. I have just described a million people who have no particular interest in science but perhaps remember some things they were taught in high school or college.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;This indicates to me that you believe we are in two separate &lt;strong&gt;equal&lt;/strong&gt; camps when it comes to analyzing a question and coming to a conclusion; that the tools you have chosen are equally as effective; and that therefore your conclusions can be equally as valid. You do not appear to appreciate that perhaps God gave you science to understand the natural world that you believe he created.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I hope I never said that, and that you are interpolating my words with your assumptions about what I mean."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;We went over this already. Twice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I think that when two parties both consider themselves to be under a transcendent authority, there is an added psychological layer that can help when will power fails."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Unless they're collaborating to do something terrible that they believe God told them to do, or they are conspiring to manipulate people who have come to your conclusion. The problem with supernatural authority is that it tells you whatever you &lt;em&gt;think&lt;/em&gt; it's telling you. By definition, that person becomes untrustworthy. Your claim has at least an equal number of historical examples of &lt;em&gt;failure&lt;/em&gt; as it does successes. If God's authority was so helpful, then how do you explain the Spanish Inquisition, for example? Shouldn't that sort of thing have been inherently impossible? Do you realize that it lasted for hundreds of years -- a large percentage of the lifetime of Christianity?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Every opinion I express is a belief. Not a statement of fact."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Then be aware that, grammatically, the absolute is assumed when the statement is not qualified.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I find it vastly entertaining that an atheist is making these kinds of theological determinations&lt;/em&gt;."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;So because I am not convinced that God exists, I'm not qualified to describe a denomination? That there was perhaps no point where I might have been a believer?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You just wrote a list of things. None of which is evidence that "you shouldn't need a supernatural agent to validate that conditioning." You are making an existential claim about felt needs."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You're really resisting this, aren't you?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"It's like if I gave you a list as follows: "the Bible, Jesus, the Nicean creed, Augustine.""&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Hardly. Those are belief systems and people who believe things, not a staggering body of physical evidence. Your God tarp is starting to rip, Josh.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Unless you have some specific data - not simply fields of study - I have nothing to go on."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;And now that corner of the tarp is flapping in the wind. You want specific data? Tell me, Josh, what is the reasonable conclusion of &lt;em&gt;high school biology&lt;/em&gt;? You have &lt;em&gt;already seen&lt;/em&gt; overwhelming evidence, you just don't &lt;em&gt;like&lt;/em&gt; it's implications.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Point me towards the evidence. I can't very well type in "neurology" or "anthropology" to Google and see what you're talking about."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;That would apparently be a good start.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"And now please, tell me how this comment is not arrogant. It sounds to me like you are saying that if one is as smart and educated as you are, they will believe the same thing as you. I don't think this is epistemologically sound."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I'd like to &lt;em&gt;think&lt;/em&gt; that a given person would want evidence when someone claimed that Jesus was the son of a god who created the universe and knows everything we've done and are going to do. I'd like to &lt;em&gt;think&lt;/em&gt; that people can think critically and skeptically about supernatural claims. Is logic arrogant, Josh?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I've expressed my opinions about some basic psychological premises involving morality and relationships. I hardly think that can be counted as arrogant."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;And you've back up your "opinions" loudly and repeatedly when they are challenged. That is not the characteristic of an opinion. That is the characteristic of a claimed fact that you are not willing to acknowledge as such, either to yourself or the rest of us. Also characteristic is your determined denial of arguments that undermine your position. You say they are opinions, &lt;em&gt;but you are defending them as though they are facts&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Edit: I think it would be more accurate to characterize your "opinions" as &lt;em&gt;beliefs.&lt;/em&gt; Beliefs that do not appear to have much factual basis.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Captain_Midnight'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Captain_Midnight&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Let it me put it for you succinctly, then: You describe yourself as "open-minded." However, you are also a "radical skeptic." However, you say you are an "agnostic theist." However, you believe Jesus is the son of the God of the Bible.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Your beliefs -- or, as you like to backpedal, "opinions" -- originate from a clearly broken self-interpretation that contains a stunning level of mutually incompatible philosophies. There is absolutely no getting around this. The truth of the matter: You are not a skeptic, you are not open-minded, and you are not an agnostic theist. Laying claim to these three dominions reveals a &lt;strong&gt;massive&lt;/strong&gt; mental dissonance.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Now you're just listing my beliefs. What are you trying to establish here? That I have opinions? Really? You just typed that much just to tell me I have opinions? Maybe you think my highest moral icon is open-mindedness?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I am establishing that your opinions are not open-minded. Also, don't backpedal and call them opinions, as if they could change in the course of a minute. They are your beliefs, informed by your uniquely bizarre world-view.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Neither can your basic assertion about the absence of God."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Where the fuck did I say that God doesn't exist? How many times have I been very careful &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; to say that?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"There is no conclusive evidence either way. No one even has a testable theory about either."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I fear our future. I really do.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Your beliefs -- or, as you like to backpedal, "opinions""&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Are beliefs and opinions different? I have always used them synonymously.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"originate from a clearly broken self-interpretation that contains a stunning level of mutually incompatible philosophies".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's all very well to simply declare that these are mutually incompatible. It's another thing to show how.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Laying claim to these three dominions reveals a massive mental dissonance."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Or perhaps you lack the proper interpretive framework for understanding how complementary they all are. Please point out a specific incompatibility! It's possible that your opinion is based on misunderstandings of my statements or the labels we are using.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I am establishing that your opinions are not open-minded".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I guess that depends on your definition. Like you, I have a system of interpretation that I apply to all ideas. I find some things less likely than others. Things like telepathy and alien abductions fall low on my openness scale. But the important thing is that I am careful to always leave &lt;em&gt;some&lt;/em&gt; room for my mind to be changed. I'm open to the fact that my whole worldview could be predicated on key falsehoods that keep me blind to certain possibilities.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"don't backpedal and call them opinions, as if they could change in the course of a minute."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So you consider the difference between belief and opinion to be how firmly, or long they are held?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Where the fuck did I say that God doesn't exist?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;My bad. I'm on an atheist forum carrying on a dozen conversations simultaneously. No need to get upset.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I fear our future. I really do."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And this is a mere rhetorical devise designed to dismiss through emotional detachment. If your done conversing, that's fine. A parting insult as your last statement is just immature.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Captain_Midnight'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Captain_Midnight&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's all very well to simply declare that these are mutually incompatible. It's another thing to show how.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You're... I'm sorry. You're kidding me, right? I can't really be patient with you if you're going to say something like that. If you're going to try and tell me that &lt;em&gt;radical skepticism&lt;/em&gt; is compatible with &lt;em&gt;agnostic theism&lt;/em&gt; or "open-mindedness," and claim that &lt;em&gt;radical skepticism&lt;/em&gt; or &lt;em&gt;agnostic theism&lt;/em&gt; are at all compatible with specifically being a Christian*... then...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;How do I put this... I consider myself a pretty easy-going guy. I rarely actually lash out at people unless they really deserve it and the confrontation is unavoidable. That said, I have no problem at all saying that you are a &lt;strong&gt;goddamned retard.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Call it ad hominem. Call it anything you like. I cannot respect you or your views if you are going to hold such an intellectually insulting position and not even &lt;em&gt;entertain&lt;/em&gt; the possibility of innacuracy. You need &lt;em&gt;profound help&lt;/em&gt; in the way you look at the world. Your perception &lt;em&gt;horribly broken&lt;/em&gt;. This starkly obvious conclusion is proved by the very terminology that you use and claim is somehow compatible. I have absolutely no obligation to elaborate, because your relationship to your terminology speaks for itself.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you cannot entertain the notion that you may in fact be &lt;em&gt;incredibly confused intellectually&lt;/em&gt;, then I have to wonder what it is you're putting in your mind and body that leads you to your bewildering, migraine-inducing perception. I can only wonder, because I can think of &lt;em&gt;nothing&lt;/em&gt; that would lead a rational person to end up where you are. Nothing. At all.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt; "I can't really be patient with you if you're going to say something like that."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I understand that we all have limited resources, and determining who gets our time is an important aspect of life. However, I think your stated criteria is clearly hiding another, more emotional motivation for quitting our conversation. If I were asking questions like, "How is a fish not like an apple?", or "Why do you hate all that is good?" you would be well within your intellectual rights to refuse to continue. When in fact, I am simply asking you for one single example of how the interpretive frameworks you mentioned are incompatible. You made a claim. I asked for an example. This isn't rocket surgery.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I consider myself a pretty easy-going guy."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Really? Me too. I wonder if a dispassionate reader of our conversation would make the same determination.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"That said, I have no problem at all saying that you are a &lt;/em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;goddamned retard&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;. ...Call it ad hominem."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;My guess rather that it's insecurity. You don't seem to have the ability to articulate the substance of your assertions, so you make simple, sweeping categorical judgments the basis of your argument. Sort of related to the No True Scotsman fallacy. You say I can be a Christian. But no true Christian is a skeptic. Or I may be a skeptic, but no true skeptic can be a theist. You are creating artificial and arbitrary boundaries in worlds of thought that you apparently have spent little time investigating.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I cannot respect you or your views if you are going to hold such an intellectually insulting position and not even entertain the possibility of innacuracy."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm not sure I know what "intellectual insult" constitutes. If you simply mean that you are offended, or that all intelligent people would be offended by what I say, I think you might benefit from some self examination of your emotional ties to your worldview. As to my entertaining the possibility of my own inaccuracy; I'm not sure how much more I can entertain that when, as I've said, "The thing of which I am most certain is that I Know nothing." That is what differentiates, in my mind, the mere issue-oriented skeptic from the true, radical skeptic. You seem to be of the former class, and can't comprehend how the latter thinks.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You need profound help in the way you look at the world."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I believe we all do. Do you feel that you have the final and irrevocably correct view of all things? I certainly don't. That's why I hold my views to close scrutiny and enjoy the process of criticism, even from those who are hostile and insulting. I don't limit my pool of critics because I never know where Truth may be found.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I have absolutely no obligation to elaborate, because your relationship to your terminology speaks for itself."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is again, avoiding any sort of substance in the argument.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"If you cannot entertain the notion that you may in fact be incredibly confused intellectually,"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Oh but I can and I do. Quite often. Do you?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I can think of nothing that would lead a rational person to end up where you are."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes. We all have limits in our creativity, intellect, emotions and imagination. That's ok.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/ABTechie'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;ABTechie&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Ancient Judaism is filled with rape, murder, cannabilism, racism, mysogyny, fear mongering, and belief in magic and myth.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;He shouldn't have threatened ignorant and fearful people with eternal fire and punishment from God.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;He was a Jew and if you wanted salvation, you had to be a Jew. John 4:22.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;He never said slavery was wrong. He never said women had a right to choose whom they married. He never said women had a right to refuse to have sex with their husbands.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;People pick and choose. You can gain some wisdom from him, but he is far from the perfect savior many people believe him to be. I have been going to church for 37 years. He is definitely not accurately portrayed in church.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"He shouldn't have threatened ignorant and fearful people with eternal fire and punishment from God."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I don't believe that he did. The word rendered as "eternal" is based on the Latin word that was used in place of the Greek word aion/aionious. Careful study will show that aion/aionious does not mean eternal.  Even if He did threaten eternal punishment, it's only a bad thing if it's not true, right? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"He was a Jew and if you wanted salvation, you had to be a Jew. John 4:22."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;He clearly came from a Jewish context and saw His earthly ministry as for the Jews. You can also see lots of windows open for the rest of the world. Pretty much every parable He told was about Israel assuming they had God's number one position and finding out they were left out in the cold.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"He never said slavery was wrong. He never said women had a right to choose whom they married. He never said women had a right to refuse to have sex with their husbands."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Or that raping pigs was wrong, or eating brains. Please remember we don't have all His teachings. Even if we did, we have His total apathy for political change when He said to "give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's." He clearly had a mission that transcended earthly, political corruption which has been and always will be with us.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"People pick and choose."&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br /&gt;					&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Yes they do.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;He is definitely not accurately portrayed in church.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I totally agree. I don't think our European sanitized version of Him is very helpful.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/ABTechie'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;ABTechie&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://biblos.com/matthew/25-46.htm'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;Matthew 25:46&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Greek word for eternal is &lt;a href='http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/166.htm'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; text-decoration:underline'&gt;aiónios&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt; which is what is used in my example.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You can also see lots of windows open for the rest of the world."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Anyone can use his wisdom, but he was meant for the Jews. You had to follow him to get to the Father.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ol&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+10:5-7&amp;amp;version=NIV'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;Matthew 10:6&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;					&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+15:23-25&amp;amp;version=NIV'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;Matthew 15:24&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;					&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%204:%2020-23&amp;amp;version=NIV'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;John 4:22&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;					&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+27:10-12&amp;amp;version=NIV'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;Matthew 27:11&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;					&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+15:1-3&amp;amp;version=NIV'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;Mark 15:2&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;					&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+23:2-4&amp;amp;version=NIV'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;Luke 23:3&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;					&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"raping pigs was wrong"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;You said put him in context. For hundreds of years, Jewish men treated women like property, even offering up their daughters to be gang raped. Jesus said that he came &lt;a href='http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205:17-20&amp;amp;version=NIV'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; text-decoration:underline'&gt;to fulfill the Law&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;. So, unless he comes out and speaks specifically against the Law or updates it, the Law still applies, as said by Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"we don't have all His teachings"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;We can't say for sure that we have any of his teachings. He didn't write anything down himself. The Gospels were written at minimum 60 years after his possible existence, and Paul, his biggest supporter, never met him or quoted him. And, we are only talking about the Gospels that made it into the Bible.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I understand all of this. Since I don't need the Bible to be perfect to get a general idea, it still works fine. General historical scholarship acknowledges that the Gospels are very close to the source by their standards. I believe we get a pretty good picture of Jesus from them. That's a judgment call. As to how exclusive Jesus was during the 1 -3 years recorded, I agreed with you that He felt his ministry was to the Jews. But I think you're getting into very shaky territory if you think you know what He meant by "fulfill the Law." I certainly don't. There are plenty of Christian doctrines built up around that statement, but I don't know how accurate they are.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;And I think this is where our fundamental disagreement lies. I see language as very malleable, vague, and mysterious when it gets into the realm of religion and philosophy. I've noticed that atheists almost always want a sort of binary approach to language. Either a thing is On or Off, True or False. But I don't think that works with life outside the lab and the computer. For example, the definition of the verb fulfill can go a thousand directions depending on how metaphorical you want to get, especially in this context. Here's an article I wrote about the Binary/Continuum perspectives and how they apply to language.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/ABTechie'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;ABTechie&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I really like this &lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/aiypb/im_glad_aggressive_atheism_exists_listening_to/c0htg1i'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; text-decoration:underline'&gt;comment&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;. http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/aiypb/im_glad_aggressive_atheism_exists_listening_to/c0htg1i   Please read it. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;It is time to move beyond Jesus, God and the Bible and the flawed system that supports them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/ABTechie'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;ABTechie&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"fulfill"&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;He may not have explained what he meant by fulfill. But, he said that you should follow the Law.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%205:17-20&amp;amp;version=NIV'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;Matthew 5:17-20&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"-I see language as very malleable, vague, and mysterious when it gets into the realm of religion and philosophy."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Fine, then whenever you interpret something, it is your understanding that you get from the passage not necessarily the intent of the author. It is humanism and relative to the individual.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Either a thing is On or Off, True or False"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I like doubt. What I don't like is the portrayal of Jesus being the savior for everyone. His opinion matters more than everyone else's. In my opinion, he is fallible and antiquated, and subject to interpretation, ancient culture and ancient language. It is time to move beyond constantly trying to understand WWJD. We can do better. There are more examples of good and understanding other than Jesus. There are easier examples to understand than Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;We are spinning our wheels. Bogged down in understanding ancient Jewish culture, ancient Greek, different interpretations... Forcing ourselves to have to come to an understanding to all important document from God when it is not necessary to have a good and moral life.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;We need to be studying psychology more. Sociology, biology, physics... It would produce a better understanding of this world and the people in it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Here's an article"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Where?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"he said that you should follow the Law".&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Yes He did. Well, He told the Jews he was preaching to that they should follow the Law. Again... His 1- 3 year ministry was very clearly for the Jews, then and there. The Christian understanding is that His existence changed everything. He was the mechanism by which the world was redeemed. Whether or not that is nonsense is a matter of interpretation. If you dismiss the existence of God or miracles out of hand, of course it's nonsense!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"whenever you interpret something, it is your understanding that you get from the passage not necessarily the intent of the author."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Well, yeah. That is not the ideal. That's why those who really care about what Jesus said and meant try to study the milieu and such. Even so, our vision can never be perfect and our assumptions will always fill in gaps. That's why I don't believe in doctrine any more. There's too much conjecture to sign on the dotted line.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"It is humanism and relative to the individual."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;As with all pursuits of knowledge, we seek to get beyond that state, to find evidence with which to form larger and larger consensus.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"What I don't like is the portrayal of Jesus being the savior for everyone."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Ok. I don't like the idea of no God. So what?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"His opinion matters more than everyone else's. In my opinion, he is fallible and antiquated, and subject to interpretation, ancient culture and ancient language."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Yes, that is your opinion. And that's fine with me. Maybe you're right.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;We can do better. There are more examples of good and understanding other than Jesus."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;"Isn't that kind of like saying there are better bands out there than the Beatles? I mean, what is your criteria for making this claim? All you can do submit criteria that you like and omit criteria that you don't. This is completely subjective.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Bogged down in understanding ancient Jewish culture, ancient Greek, different interpretations..."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Some of us find that fun! And some of us find it worth the effort. I mean, a claim has been made that is amazing. If God became a man at a particular date and time, I'd like to know as much as I can about it. If you didn't dismiss the very notion out of hand you probably would too. Perhaps the claim is fallacious. Perhaps not. It's fun to look into it. Especially when the information is informing and transforming your life.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Forcing ourselves to have to come to an understanding to all important document from God when it is not necessary to have a good and moral life."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Some people force themselves to sit in the stands all day for the Indianapolis 500. I guess they like it. And is the Bible &lt;em&gt;necessary&lt;/em&gt; to have a good and moral life? Of course not. I never claimed it was. I claimed it was helpful.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"We need to be studying psychology more. Sociology, biology, physics... It would produce a better understanding of this world and the people in it."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I agree! Let's do that!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Where?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Oops! Sorry. here it is. If you like doubt I think you'll like my article. Let me know.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner%7Ey2009m9d22-The-continuum'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner~y2009m9d22-The-continuum&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/ABTechie'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;ABTechie&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I believe that everybody comes to conclusions based on the information they have, the order they received it and the trustworthiness of the sources.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Your belief in the existence of a personal God and Jesus is subjective. The physical reality of a personal God is not. I don't care if a god exists or doesn't. What I care about is the truth, as I understand it, matching up reality as closely as possible.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I don't have time to find and show you the better examples than Jesus. There may not be one source that is better than Jesus and all the examples of conduct that he gives. But, if you are as smart and knowledgeable as I think you are, then you know enough about the history of Christiantiy to know that the reasons that is was able to spread around the world include far more than love, kindness and following Jesus' example.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I am going to stick with the Scientific Method and all of the -ologies, except theology, and leave religion to the people who care about it. I have had enough. It is time to move on to a better understanding of the world and humanity.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I believe that everybody comes to conclusions based on the information they have, the order they received it and the trustworthiness of the sources."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;I totally agree. I would add that we choose our authorities based on our desires.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Your belief in the existence of a personal God and Jesus is subjective. The physical reality of a personal God is not."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Agreed. What we believe has no sway on reality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"What I care about is the truth, as I understand it, matching up reality as closely as possible."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Me too. I define Truth as "All facts rightly interpreted".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"you know enough about the history of Christiantiy to know that the reasons that is was able to spread around the world include far more than love, kindness and following Jesus' example".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Yes, I'm well aware, and I'm not a fan of the institutional church.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I have had enough. It is time to move on to a better understanding of the world and humanity."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Well, maybe it's better, maybe it's not. Thanks for your time!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/ABTechie'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;ABTechie&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;"&lt;em&gt;we have in Jesus a perfect example of God in a person's life"&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;He had better go back and read the Gospels again. Jesus can be a rude, racist, bigotted, fear mongerer. He is only perfect because of picking and choosing of Bible verses and the human tendency to suffer from confirmation bias.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Jesus can be a rude, racist, bigotted, fear mongerer."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ol&gt;&lt;li&gt;I won't deny that some of His words can be interpreted that way. Especially when viewed through modern frameworks.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Without a basic understanding of ancient Judaism and the cultural norms of the day it can be hard to understand when Jesus was using symbolism or making spiritual points of which the physical reality was simply a springboard.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;p&gt;In case this particular conversation goes anywhere, let me make the following clear up front:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ol&gt;&lt;li&gt;I'm not an inerrantist. The Bible ain't perfect.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;I understand modern scholarship regauding redaction, Q document, etc.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;I've read plenty of Skeptic's Bible and other related material.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Tinidril'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Tinidril&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;Without a basic understanding of ancient Judaism and the cultural norms of the day"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But this is the problem. The whole moral argument for Christianity is based on the theory that there has to be an ultimate standard for right and wrong that is independent of fallible human beings. You can give Thomas Jefferson a pass based on the principal of cultural norms, but not God.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm not giving Jesus or God a pass. I'm saying that what can appear to be racism, cruelty, etc. in once cultural setting can be understood differently by another, especially when you are dealing with a wandering sage who used every possible example he found to create a metaphor for something spiritual.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And again. Everything in the Bible is people's perceptions. Jesus never wrote anything himself. We are left with imperfect interpretations of Him and His work and sayings. Unlike Jefferson, who has many many writings to look at. And I wouldn't give him a pass either. For morality to mean anything it cannot be contextually derived. You can say he had some blind spots due to his cultural milieu, (as we all do) but you can't say his affairs or slavery was ok without losing any power to promote any moral concept as right.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Tinidril'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Tinidril&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So all the unquestionably bad stuff in the Bible is obviously a misinterpretation by the writer? Ridiculous. Why not assume the opposite and claim they only got the absolutely evil stuff right.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As bad as the Bible is as a historical resource, it is all that really exists to tell us about Jesus. If it is truly that untrustworthy, and you seem to think it is even more so than most atheists would claim, then what can possibly be gained from it?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It's like any other historical document. What can be learned from Ab Urbe Condita or Herodotus? All sorts of things! As to which version of God I gleam from the Bible, you are correct that if there is a God, it could be the asshole demiurge described in many places. If that were the case I would not worship it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"If it is truly that untrustworthy"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I didn't say it's untrustworthy. I said it represents a large variety of perspectives. It's only untrustworthy if you impose the wrong interpretive grid onto it like the inerrantists and atheists do. It's untrustworthy if you presumption is that every word must be True and accurately represent a physical reality. It's not a science book. It's not doctrine book. It's not a history book. (At least not according to the modern definitions of these things.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"what can possibly be gained from it?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A life-changing and enriching set of idea, challenges, perspectives, and most importantly, a glimpse at what God may have been like in human form.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Tinidril'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Tinidril&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You can learn all sorts of things from Lord of the Rings too. Any moral lessons gleaned from the Bible at this point are nothing but our current cultural values being imposed on the text.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Any picture of God that is derived from the text is one of an abusive, capricious, self-important bigot. Even Jesus' greatest act is a thin veil over the outrageous idea that God requires blood sacrifices for our sins, and that guilt can somehow be lifted from one person and placed on another.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't think that Jesus gives us the slightest idea of what God may have been like in human form, if such an idea even made sense in the first place. I would be willing to concede that it at least makes an interesting story, if not for the harm that is done to society by the billions of people who take it seriously. You act like your version of magic thinking is harmless, but it isn't.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Theism is like a virus. It spreads from person to person, mutating all of the time. Some people are immune to the virus and never get it. Others get the virus, but live as carriers, largely unaffected by the potential damage it can do. Then we have fundamentalists who, for whatever reason, lack the immune response to keep the virus in check. The virus seems harmless enough to the carriers but, unless they are 'vaccinated' as well, the virus will continue to mutate and wreak havoc on the rest of society.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you look at the history of any religion, the one consistency is that they always splinter, generally becoming more fundamentalist as they go.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt; "Any moral lessons gleaned from the Bible at this point are nothing but our current cultural values being imposed on the text."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I would say that some are, some are not. I agree that every person is hopelessly colored by their time and place. I disagree that this coloring completely blocks all communication from other time/places.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Any picture of God that is derived from the text is one of an abusive, capricious, self-important bigot."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That sounds like cherry picking to me. What about the God who made a covenant with Israel and symbolically threatens Himself with punishment if they broke it? What about the God who rains mana on them? What the Biblical text presents us with is a perspective that is clearly colored by tribal political concerns. Beyond this, your accusation that God can be "capricious" or "self-important" can only stand if you know and understand what God is. If God is All powerful all knowing, etc. He can't very well be "self-important" in the sense that you and I can be. There would be no falseness in His importance. And "capricious" depends on motivation, which there is no way to determine from a God who knows all. Yeah, If god was a dude with a gray beard sitting on a cloud and making decisions like your me, then your descriptions would be apt.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Even Jesus' greatest act is a thin veil over the outrageous idea that God requires blood sacrifices for our sins, and that guilt can somehow be lifted from one person and placed on another."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;What you are referring to is a doctrine called substitutionary atonement or penal substitution which developed in the middle ages as our court system evolved. It is by no means the only interpretation of Jesus' work.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You act like your version of magic thinking is harmless, but it isn't."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I hope it's not harmless. That would mean it had no power. I think my "magic thinking" is pretty radical and changes lives for the better. And like anything powerful, the stronger it is, the more perverted it becomes when used with evil motives.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Theism is like a virus".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;All social memes are. Including atheism.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"the virus will continue to mutate and wreak havoc on the rest of society."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I could say the same about all sorts of ideas like marxism or atheism. But both or our accusations could not be proved. Life is too complicated to make accurate assessment about how one &lt;em&gt;part&lt;/em&gt; of a person's thinking affects them and society at large. We are left with our gut feelings about it. I'm sorry you feel I'm dangerous and spreading evil. But I guess until I'm convinced of the same thing there's not much I can do about it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"If you look at the history of any religion, the one consistency is that they always splinter, generally becoming more fundamentalist as they go."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yeah, same with philosophy, political parties, and other human institutions. Not sure about that last fundamentalist part. Seems to me there are plenty of very liberal religious folks and institutions out there. The Boy Scouts, Harvard, the YMCA, Salvation Army and the Episcopalians have gotten much, much less fundamentalist.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Tinidril'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Tinidril&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I disagree that this coloring completely blocks all communication from other time/places."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I do as well. My comment was specific to moral lessons from the Bible. There is literally nothing there to draw from that the modern moral zeitgeist hasn't done far better. About the best you can find is "He who is without sin cast the first stone", which from textual analysis is the least likely to have actually come from Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"All social memes are. Including atheism."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I disagree with the idea that atheism is a viral meme. It is the rejection of a meme. In this analogy it would have to be a shared antibody or something. Religious memes are dangerous because they are not constrained by empiricism. Rational memes are dampered in their ability to mutate by the fact that their replication is harmed when they conflict with evidence. In the words of Sam Harris, "There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Yeah, same with philosophy, political parties, and other human institutions."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Philosophy doesn't change at anything close to the scale of religion. It gets more refined, but due to it's anchor to empiricism there are far fewer offshoots. Political parties, and other human institutions are driven by popular opinion which in the absence of secularism is largely driven by religion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"The Boy Scouts, Harvard, the YMCA, Salvation Army and the Episcopalians have gotten much, much less fundamentalist."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I did say generally, and only one of the items in your list is a religion, and it doesn't have nearly the members of more fundamentalist sects. And all of these have been softened by the pressure of secularism.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"There is literally nothing there to draw from that the modern moral zeitgeist hasn't done far better."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I would argue that modern western society is so thoroughly saturated with Biblical concepts that despite any trends away from religion they still maintain that character. Zeitgeist is the accretion of the ages, and while Platonic morality and some eastern platitudes are mixed in there, you cannot deny that Christianity has been a dominant feature of the intellectual landscape for most of our culture's development. I think that fact may obscure in an age-old echo chamber the stark moral imperatives that Christianity offers.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I disagree with the idea that atheism is a viral meme. It is the rejection of a meme."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Atheism is an idea. And like every idea it accepts some things and rejects others.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Religious memes are dangerous because they are not constrained by empiricism&lt;/em&gt;."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And I could say that atheist memes are dangerous because they are not constrained by the concept of a transcendent authority. But all this talk of danger is a red herring without any evidence to back it up. If a large majority of religious people went around shooting others because their god tells them to that would be one thing. As it is, that is a vast minority of religious people. If every atheist were an immoral scoundrel that would be one thing. But that's the minority. And statistics about atheist vs. religious are meaningless because most "religious" people simply call themselves that for cultural reasons. They are check-box religious, and their "faith" in never utilized except for the occasional ceremony. Because of this single fact, the efficacy or evil of religion can never be established.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Haha... I like that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Philosophy doesn't change at anything close to the scale of religion."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I assume you don't read a lot of philosophy?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"due to it's anchor to empiricism there are far fewer offshoots."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Empiricism is a fairly late development. And it can hardly be called an "anchor" for philosophy. It defines a general school of philosophy, but other modern movements like Existentialism, Romanticism, and Epistemological anarchism are reactions against Empiricism. They came about because Empiricism fails to adequately address the human experience.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"and only one of the items in your list is a religion"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;My point was that they were all started as religious institutions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"softened by the pressure of secularism&lt;/em&gt;."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Agreed. I'm no enemy of secularism. To be honest, I'd be quite pleased if institutional religion was outlawed. I don't think it has done its job. I think it's actively promotes spiritual lethargy.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Tinidril'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Tinidril&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I would argue that modern western society is so thoroughly saturated with Biblical concepts that despite any trends away from religion they still maintain that character."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Try a thought experiment. Make a list of what you believe would be the 10 most central moral precepts in modern society. Then look in the Bible for the origins of those beliefs. I suspect you will find one or two might have some concrete connection, and probably about the same for those with no connection. The rest will require a massively liberal interpretation of the text, not justified by any qualified textual analysis. For those that do have a solid connection, I guarantee you will find older and unrelated sources as well.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Then start going through the bible looking for moral precepts, and see how many are still accepted in secular society today. You will find that the vast majority of the moral information in the Bible is abhorrent to modern society. Of course there is plenty of wiggle room if you want to interpret broadly enough, and try to apply the precepts to situations for which they were never intended. Maybe "slaves obey your masters" just means you should try to do a good job at work. But that doesn't mean that nobody would be working hard if not for the 'biblical roots' of their moral views.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As I posted in the other thread, we are pattern finding organisms, and we will find them whether they exist or not.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I assume you don't read a lot of philosophy?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I have read a lot of philosophy. Do you have a point? And have you ever heard of a philosopher blowing themselves up in a crowded market because of disagreements over the the nature of consciousness? The history of philosophy is closer to the history of the other sciences than it is to the history of religion. Yes there have been major splits, and many still exist.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;General relativity is a massive change from Newtonian physics, and there is no significant segment of the scientific community that thinks the latter is more correct. But the Newtonian formulas are still preferred for the vast majority of applications because they are simpler, making them more appropriate. Disparate philosophies work in much the same way. Most professional philosophers understand that philosophical frameworks are tools, and the best tool for one application isn't going to be the best for another. You don't get philosophers claiming that some truth is divinely inspired and unquestionable.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;When religions splinter, each side thinks they have divine guidance. The split is absolute. Each side is sure that they have divine information that has been withheld from the others. There is no basis for discussion. No way for one group to prove their point. The best you can get is a weak ecumenicalism, where they agree to disagree. There is no progress, because there is no foundation of fact from which to measure it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Empiricism is a fairly late development."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No, empiricism has been with us since before we were human. What is new is that we finally have the tools to apply it. How do you apply empiricism to an earthquake when you have barely mastered language? You can't. But you can notice that sharper spears pierce flesh more easily, or that fewer people get sick when you cook the meat. We have also learned a lot about our own consciousness that has resulted in a tuning of empirical methods, but the roots of empiricism are ancient.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"They came about because Empiricism fails to adequately address the human experience."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Empiricism failed to explain the earthquake too, but that doesn't mean that magical thinking did any better. I think it is safe to say that sacrificing virgins and burning witches did little to stop future quakes.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Try a thought experiment."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is a good experiment. Thank you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"one or two might have some concrete connection, and probably about the same for those with no connection."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Do you mean things like the equality of all, freedom of assembly, and the right to a fair trial? If so, it's not hard to trace their development back to the middle ages, and see where their inception was informed by Christian values. I note that secularists seem to see the enlightenment as the birthplace of a lot of these ideas as if the appeared &lt;em&gt;ex nihilo&lt;/em&gt;. But I think rather that they are mostly of the follow-the-logic variety of ideas. Established truisms lead to conflict with established norms, as the norms erode, the truisms are given room to flourish. So it was with the enlightenment. It cleared away so many norms that many of the flowers of morality we so enjoy were given room to bloom.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"But that doesn't mean that nobody would be working hard if not for the 'biblical roots' of their moral views."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I want to be sure that I'm not misunderstood as having said that the Bible is the basis for all morality. I believe the basis for morality is, as Paul said, written on our hearts. Which I interpret as evolved out of the necessity of group survival in our primitive states.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"have you ever heard of a philosopher blowing themselves up in a crowded market because of disagreements over the the nature of consciousness?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Heh.. true. But I wasn't arguing that religion is socially benign, only that schools of philosophy, like all institutions, suffers from fractures and schisms all the time. Your initial statement about philosophy being rooted in empiricism gave the impression you thought it was a stable, monolithic thing. I would also point out that although philosophers themselves don't blow themselves up, (neither do the priests or mullahs) those caught up in philosophical movements that turn political (ie Marxism, communism) certainly do.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You don't get philosophers claiming that some truth is divinely inspired and unquestionable."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No but most do insist that theirs &lt;em&gt;IS&lt;/em&gt; the correct view.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"The best you can get is a weak ecumenicalism, where they agree to disagree. There is no progress, because there is no foundation of fact from which to measure it."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I agree and for that reason I'm not the biggest fan of institutionalized religion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"empiricism has been with us since before we were human."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Of course. I thought you were referring to the official movement. Empiricism with a capitol E. Though what you are describing could hardly be called empiricism, but simply observation, reason and logic. It's a rhetorical device to associate the two, as if empiricism is the only natural conclusion of observation, reason and logic. I assume you are merely using the word as a misnomer.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I think it is safe to say that sacrificing virgins and burning witches did little to stop future quakes."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well, when I start advocating those actions your argument will hold some validity for my position.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Tinidril'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Tinidril&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"If so, it's not hard to trace their development back to the middle ages, and see where their inception was informed by Christian values."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Trace for me how these are "Christian values". You are still assuming patterns where there are none. Plato and Aristotle both wrote about equality, and I assume you don't think they got the idea from Christianity. As for "Freedom of Assembly" and the "Right to a Fair Trial", you have to be absolutely delusional if you think that the church of the middle ages held these values.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And you can find movements based on these principals happening in Asia &lt;em&gt;long&lt;/em&gt; before Christianity had any influence there. Native Americans also held many of these modern principals.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I believe the basis for morality is, as Paul said, written on our hearts. Which I interpret as evolved out of the necessity of group survival in our primitive states."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes, I'm sure that's what Paul meant. Please forgive me for accusing you of imposing your own beliefs on the text. Obviously I was mistaken.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"No but most do insist that theirs IS the correct view."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Reference please. Certainly some, but most?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Though what you are describing could hardly be called empiricism, but simply observation, reason and logic."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I really hate semantic arguments, so I'm going to just ask you to look the word up.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Well, when I start advocating those actions your argument will hold some validity for my position."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I wasn't criticizing something that you advocate. I was criticizing the idea of knowledge without evidence and reason, so don't act like I was attacking a straw man.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Trace for me how these are "Christian values"."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are far better sources than I for this sort of historical source. I'm sure there are better sources as well, but the first that comes to mind is the book The Discarded Image.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Besides, I am not attempting to say that the values must reside within Christian thought to work. I'm saying that the "Christian" milieu of medieval Europe was soil in which our enlightenment ideals gestated.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Plato and Aristotle both wrote about equality, and I assume you don't think they got the idea from Christianity".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That such ideas existed in other times and places makes no difference to my argument that one can learn great moral lessons from the Bible. (I'm aware of Code of Hammurabi/Ten Commandments connection) I'm not trying to denigrate other great moral ideas. If God is the origin of morals then He has written them large, across the planet and time. If the Bible contains examples of immorality I contend they are not God-breathed. One of &lt;em&gt;many&lt;/em&gt; reasons I don't consider the Bible inerrant.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"As for "Freedom of Assembly" and the "Right to a Fair Trial", you have to be absolutely delusional if you think that the church of the middle ages held these values."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I agree that the institutional Church was a force for much repression and denial of liberty. (To be fair they also preserved most of what we know of western history.) When I speak of roots I'm not talking about inside the hierarchy of the institutions of religion, which clearly had a lot of evil going on. The Church was one of those institutions that needed to be knocked down for the Christian ideas it suppressed to bloom. The basic idea that men are equal could only make logical sense in the absence of a state religion that made demands of the masses that it did not hold itself to. All men being created equal is not a natural presupposition, (I know there are far stronger and smarter men than I.) and ascribing that idea to a creating God gives it meaning outside of an abstract political state setting. That verses to this affect were repressed by Latin-only scripture reading and other doctrinal devices designed to repress knowledge does not mean the sentiment wasn't there.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Yes, I'm sure that's what Paul meant."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I wasn't claiming that's what Paul meant. I gave my interpretation informed by modern scientific theories. Is that ok?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Reference please. Certainly some, but most?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Wait... you want me to source a bunch of philosophers proclaiming their views to be correct? If you've read much philosophy you'll get the idea pretty fast.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I really hate semantic arguments, so I'm going to just ask you to look the word up."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Main Entry: em·pir·i·cism Pronunciation: \im-ˈpir-ə-ˌsi-zəm, em-\ Function: noun Date: 1657&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;1 a : a former school of medical practice founded on experience without the aid of science or theory b : quackery, charlatanry 2 a : the practice of relying on observation and experiment especially in the natural sciences b : a tenet arrived at empirically 3 : a theory that all knowledge originates in experience&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes. It means what I think it means. What you have been doing (it seems to me) is taking the utterly obvious idea that observation and experiment lead to facts, (The second definition) and leveraging that into the capitol-E-Empiricism. (The third definition) The problem with the third definition is that it is epistemological untenable. To say that observation and experiment leads to facts is wonderful. To assume that this implies that observation and experiment are the &lt;em&gt;only&lt;/em&gt; way to ascertain facts is patently unprovable. It is mere opinion. Preference. I'm not dancing on semantics here. This is a very real distinction that you have been conflating.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I was criticizing the idea of knowledge without evidence and reason, so don't act like I was attacking a straw man.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Oh, sorry. I thought you were doing the typical wrap-up straw-man: designed for maximum emotional reaffirmation."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Anyway, I attack the idea of Knowledge. But we agree that evidence and reason is the closest we can get to it. :)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/bretticon'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;bretticon&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;A lot of wishy washy thought here.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;tl:dr; Author can't be bothered to grapple with moral questions and doesn't know how to teach his kids right from wrong so he falls back on reading the bible and going to church to ensure his kids 'grow up right'.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well, I'm certainly not perfect, but I've been grappling with moral questions for many years. Perhaps I just suck at it. But I'd be interested to learn what &lt;em&gt;you&lt;/em&gt; have learned from your own grappling. Have you come to different conclusions about right and wrong? It sounds like you are critical of my &lt;em&gt;methods&lt;/em&gt; for imbuing moral ideas, not so much the moral ideas themselves, no? When you say I "fall back" on my religious tools to ensure my kids grow up right, what does that mean? Are you saying I'm passing over superior tools in favor of inferior ones? If so, please point me to the better tools. (preferably ones you have experience raising your own kids with.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/bretticon'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;bretticon&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt; "When you say I "fall back" on my religious tools to ensure my kids grow up right, what does that mean? Are you saying I'm passing over superior tools in favor of inferior ones?"&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://edge.org/3rd_culture/hauser09/hauser09_index.html'&gt;All humans possess a moral capacity independent from religious upbringing.&lt;/a&gt; Religions just piggy back on and distort this in order to sustain themselves. There are many tools for educating your children on right and wrong but first you have to understand that some of the selfish behavior of children (especially younger ones) is because their brains aren't fully developed they haven't the sufficient grey matter to entirely understand other people beyond themselves.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Fully explaining how to raise a kid outside of going to church on the internet is simply impossible. So let me give you an analogy instead.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Reversetrol is a chemical found in Red wine, it's the active ingredient that makes doctors proscribe it to people with high blood pressure. Taken in large enough doses it has been shown to extend lifespan of mice by as much as 30%. So it's good. But drinking the alcohol in the red wine is damaging to your liver, and in order to access that active enzyme in the degree necessary for the life prolongation you'd effectively kill yourself through alcohol poisoning. Religion is like that red wine, drinking a glass of it once in a while won't kill you and it has positive benefits but in my mind getting at the good stuff requires filtering out a lot of toxins that'll do bad stuff to you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you want a start to thinking about right and wrong without the Bible check out Plato's Republic. It's quite readable and many of the ideas in it formed the basis for Christ's moral teachings. I'm sure other people on here can recommend other material for raising kids outside of religion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"you have to understand that some of the selfish behavior of children (especially younger ones) is because their brains aren't fully developed they haven't the sufficient grey matter to entirely understand other people beyond themselves."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes, I understand this.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Religion is like that red wine, drinking a glass of it once in a while won't kill you and it has positive benefits but in my mind getting at the good stuff requires filtering out a lot of toxins that'll do bad stuff to you."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's a fine opinion. But I could easily reverse it and say atheism is like red wine... There is nothing in your analogy to insist on attaching any particular signifier to the signified. Any system can have beneficial and detrimental elements simultaneously. And I doubt there is any indisputable study done to back up a claim that an atheistic rather than religious upbringing is superior for producing moral children.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"If you want a start to thinking about right and wrong without the Bible check out Plato's Republic."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I enjoy the Republic. Especially his admonition to teach children to love morality. But again, what we have with this work, and Confucius, et. all is some guy with some ideas. They may be great ideas. They may be True ideas. The point I've been trying to make is that there is a fundamental difference between citing some guy in history, and grounding your moral precepts in a transcendent authority. Doing so is not an attempt to prove that transcendent authority, it is simply placing another mechanism in place for when one's self-control or emotions fail them. It's not a panacea, it doesn't always work. But neither do back up parachutes. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea to pack one.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/bretticon'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;bretticon&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt; "But I could easily reverse it and say atheism is like red wine..."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Except that atheism is not a belief system, it is the absence of a belief. If you want to talk studies you merely need to look at countries with higher atheism rates (non-believers). There is a distinct coorelation between places where religion is practiced less and performance in the sciences, mathematics and human health. Atheists also compose a statistically less then representative percentage of the prison system.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Why is atheism superior? Because I can read the bible or any religious text, I can enjoy the stories and moral message but because I hold no personal attachment to the book itself I can reject freely without any form of hypocrisy those parts which run contrary to my own innate sense of morality. I don't need to believe in magical zombies, or be confused at the contradictory passages which are obviously written by different authors.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"It's not a panacea, it doesn't always work. But neither do back up parachutes. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea to pack one".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;An imaginary parachute fails 100% of the time. It might make you 'feel' safe but in actual fact you aren't.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Except that atheism is not a belief system, it is the absence of a belief."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well that "absence of belief" has ramifications which permeate every sphere of life. So while the single idea: "there is no God" is not a belief system, it does impose a very specific framework on the world and so create a belief system.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"If you want to talk studies you merely need to look at countries with higher atheism rates (non-believers)."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Two issue here. First: societies are incredibly complex entities. To choose one statistic and say it's the determining factor in a society's character seems a bit silly to me. You might as well say it's Norway's love of black metal that makes their streets so clean. Ok, that's an exaggeration, but you get what I mean.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Second, I don't believe you can treat all religion as equal. Despite what Civilization IV has to say about it, religions are distinct and have different societal ramifications. And statistical numbers about beliefs are in my opinion pathetically inaccurate due to the fuzzy word definition mentioned above. Also, I deny doctrinal assent as any kind of measure of a person's spirituality. I believe in fruit. And if Scandinavia is the most generous area in the world I will say it is the most Christian, regardless of the people's theological beliefs.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I can read the bible or any religious text, I can enjoy the stories and moral message but because I hold no personal attachment to the book itself I can reject freely without any form of hypocrisy those parts which run contrary to my own innate sense of morality."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think most people do this, religious or otherwise. Very few Christians send their wives out of town when their period hits. They are exercising exactly what you are: common sense. As to miracles, that is a basic philosophical stance. Either you believe that an outside force can interrupt our natural world or you don't. I'm not sure how that makes atheism superior. Unless one uses miracles as a crutch to be lazy about research or responsibility. But I don't see that happening much in my faith community.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"An imaginary parachute fails 100% of the time. It might make you 'feel' safe but in actual fact you aren't."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well that's true! But of course the analogy is pointing to something psychological. And the belief that there is a transcendent authority does have literal psychological repercussions. (If it didn't you wouldn't take umbrage with theism, would you?) It is, in fact, another line of defense in one's brain when other character traits fail to resist temptation. You can call it placebo or imaginary, but it's effects are not.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/bretticon'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;bretticon&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt; "First: societies are incredibly complex entities. To choose one statistic and say it's the determining factor in a society's character seems a bit silly to me."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I didn't say that. I said there was a strong correlation. You also didn't address the high prison populations nor the predominance of atheists within the sciences. Your point here is a non sequitur.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Second, I don't believe you can treat all religion as equal. Despite what Civilization IV has to say about it, religions are distinct and have different societal ramifications."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;First of all this statement is mildly bigoted. All religions are equal in the eyes of the law if not in demographics or practically. Worse still it's a straw man, I made no allusion to Civilization. You also reject the statistics out of hand with a hand wave and 'fuzzy word definition'.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Unless one uses miracles as a crutch to be lazy about research or responsibility. But I don't see that happening much in my faith community. "&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So do you believe in miracles? You haven't been clear on this point. If Jesus were alive today it would seem you guys would reject him as a charlatan, why not reject the bible?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"But of course the analogy is pointing to something psychological. And the belief that there is a transcendent authority does have literal psychological repercussions."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You claim that your belief in a 'transcendant God' somehow makes you a better person. Sometimes you would do bad actions but a belief in something 'bigger than yourself' allows you to carry on or 'do the right thing'. There is no need to give this a supernatural gloss. No need to believe that there is something noble about an omnipotent being killing itself to satisfy some sort of barbaric blood sacrifice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Next time you feel you might be 'overcome' try taking a deep breath, think about something else and stop doing whatever it is your doing. See if you can do it without thinking about fairy tales. Pondering absurdities is a good way to distract yourself from negative thinking but you don't need to affirm them for it to be successful in taming impulses. Sometimes when I'm frustrated I imagine I can just fly away or move objects with my mind, I don't believe I can actually do these things but they are pleasant distractions. I agree with you that the mind is a powerful tool but filling it with lies does not make it a more effective actor. Teaching kids to believe in lies when they grow up is to my mind a kind of child abuse.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Religion is damaging and dangerous because it hijacks reasoned evidence based debate with absolutist nonsense. Hateful speech, inciting violence or the oppression of women and minorities is protected by law while life saving medical research is banned by law because ignorant minds hide behind superstition.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Just consider your own few posts on here, when I pointed to facts that challenged your view, or mentioned that your arguments had no weight you fell back on your feelings and rejected evidence that contravened points about the benefits your faith might provide. If your faith is built on belief in truth I'd encourage you to consider the consequences of a belief that calls upon you to reject evidence out of hand. There could be 'literal psychological repercussions' to the realization that you don't need to buy expensive snake oil to feel better you can do it with safer alternatives.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I didn't say that. I said there was a strong correlation."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Oh, ok. Well I don't know enough about international statistics to argue with you. Perhaps there is a correlation between atheism and saintliness.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You also didn't address the high prison populations nor the predominance of atheists within the sciences."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I thought my point about causation/correlation applied to these as well. And I still do. People call themselves all sorts of things without actually letting the title impact their thoughts and behaviors. You can say there are 99 out of 100 Christians in prison, and I'd say "How do you define Christian?" I'm betting we define them differently.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As to the field of science, I can see a clear personality type that is drawn to the sciences. As I can see a clear personality type that drawn to sports, politics and the arts. Never a 100% sort of thing. But enough to significant impact statistical analysis. I love scientists and read a lot of work by them, so I have a pretty good feel for how they think. I see a group that cares deeply for facts within a very small niche of interest. I see a group that has very little interest in philosophical matters. I see a group that clamors for consensus in order to justify their work. (as we all do) But unlike the arts or politics, consensus is ideally won with an appeal to material processes and logic. Such a focus can easily turn myopic, to the exclusion of the non-material. So a culture of materialism has developed in the sciences. It's been entrenched long enough that all the institutions of science from the classroom to the journals have instantiated materialism as the litmus test for acceptance. As a result, those who don't share the Zeitgeist are excluded or marginalized. I don't need to describe group-think in any more detail to you, I'm sure.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Of course group-think pervades all human associations, including religion, and I don't find a generic "religious" outlook on life any better than a generic "materialist" outlook. Both inform my life and both are good in some respects until they start making demands to be the sole arbiter of Truth or reality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"this statement is mildly bigoted&lt;/em&gt;."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well at least I'm only mildly so!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"All religions are equal in the eyes of the law if not in demographics or practically."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I was pretty sure we weren't talking about law.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Worse still it's a straw man, I made no allusion to Civilization."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sorry, didn't mean to place words in your mouth. I was only citing the game because It's one of my favorite games of all time and features all religions as equal. My point is that if you are going to appeal to statistics, you shouldn't put a radical Muslim in the same group as a radical Christian. One kind has (in modern times) been far, far more violent than the other.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"you also reject the statistics out of hand with a hand wave and 'fuzzy word definition'."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I hope to avoid hand-waving, and address your points as they stand. What I thought my statements showed, is that your correlations do not stand up to scrutiny when one considers how any person, no matter how horrible they are, can call themselves a "strong Christian", and thus contribute to statistical studies with very flawed premises and results.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You claim that your belief in a 'transcendant God' somehow makes you a better person."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Better, yes. Better than you, or anyone else? No.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Sometimes you would do bad actions but a belief in something 'bigger than yourself' allows you to carry on or 'do the right thing'."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Correct.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Next time you feel you might be 'overcome' try taking a deep breath, think about something else and stop doing whatever it is your doing."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ok, I'll give it a try.  Although… That's really what I do.  In addition to prayer.  Or rather, prayer is the medium for those processes.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I agree with you that the mind is a powerful tool but filling it with lies does not make it a more effective actor."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well, who can establish that a God is a lie?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Teaching kids to believe in lies when they grow up is to my mind a kind of child abuse."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Fun tip: I never accused any atheists of child abuse. But feel free to attack me personally. I know my heart. It doesn't bother me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Religion is damaging and dangerous because it hijacks reasoned evidence based debate with absolutist nonsense."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You've just quoted me a verse out of your bible, shall I do the same?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Hateful speech, inciting violence or the oppression of women and minorities is protected by law while life saving medical research is banned by law because ignorant minds hide behind superstition."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes, humans have used religion as an excuse for all sorts of nasty things, haven't they?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"when I pointed to facts that challenged your view, or mentioned that your arguments had no weight you fell back on your feelings and rejected evidence that contravened points about the benefits your faith might provide&lt;/em&gt;."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation of our conversation. I've been pretty diligent to address everything you've said. I &lt;em&gt;did&lt;/em&gt; disagree with some fundamental philosophical assumptions you bring with your arguments. If you consider that evasive I'm not sure what to tell you. Any time a debate occurs over the level of a fundamental epistemological disagreement a certain amount of that is inevitable. But I'm here to learn, so please re-post any relevant points you made that I did not address or addressed poorly.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"If your faith is built on belief in truth I'd encourage you to consider the consequences of a belief that calls upon you to reject evidence out of hand."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I hope I'm not doing that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"There could be 'literal psychological repercussions' to the realization that you don't need to buy expensive snake oil to feel better you can do it with safer alternatives."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Haha... true.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/bretticon'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;bretticon&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Oh, ok. Well I don't know enough about international statistics to argue with you. Perhaps there is a correlation between atheism and saintliness."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's a hand wave. I won't bring up statistics since you seem uncomfortable discussing them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I hope to avoid hand-waving, and address your points as they stand. What I thought my statements showed, is that your correlations do not stand up to scrutiny when one considers how any person, no matter how horrible they are, can call themselves a "strong Christian", and thus contribute to statistical studies with very flawed premises and results."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I have submitted evidence that suggests the benefits of non-religious belief on society you have said they are invalid because anyone can call themselves Christian. The dutch studies might classify you as a non-believer (it depends on the one you look at) if you don't regularly attend church. This is certainly a challenge for statisticians but as I said you don't seem comfortable discussing the statistical studies so I'll put those to the side for now.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt; "Yes, humans have used religion as an excuse for all sorts of nasty things, haven't they?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm glad we agree on this.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I did disagree with some fundamental philosophical assumptions you bring with your arguments. If you consider that evasive I'm not sure what to tell you. Any time a debate occurs over the level of a fundamental epistemological disagreement a certain amount of that is inevitable. But I'm here to learn, so please re-post any relevant points you made that I did not address or addressed poorly."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think this discussion has been problematic because you haven't been always explicit in distinguishing your personal belief from what is the accepted consensus on Christianity. At times you have claimed to not be an apologist but then come to the defense of your faith despite this. Aside from the statistical evidence you've been pretty consistent in providing a response.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We disagree on evidence criteria. Aside from special pleading which I mentioned above you've been quite consistent on addressing philosophical problems. But we've gotten off the topic from your original post. I hope you've found this discussion fruitful. If you have more questions I encourage you to post another link.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I won't bring up statistics since you seem uncomfortable discussing them."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm really not sure what gave you that idea. I don't have any dogs in this fight. I've already praised Sweden for their Christ-likeness. I simply don't see how statistics concerning religion can ever be useful. It's not a matter of discomfort. I simply don't think it's the right tool for the job of providing evidence that atheists are better people or make better societies. If they do that makes no difference to my claim concerning the benefits of two parties taking seriously the existence of a transcendent authority. Such parties are so few and far between it is not surprising that they would have a negligible statistical impact. If I were advocating "institutional Christianity" then statistics would be valuable to us. But I am not.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"The dutch studies might classify you as a non-believer (it depends on the one you look at) if you don't regularly attend church."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm actually quite active in my church, though I disagree with some major doctrinal issues.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I think this discussion has been problematic because you haven't been always explicit in distinguishing your personal belief from what is the accepted consensus on Christianity."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think this is a very valid point. I've been making these distinctions so frequently on most of these threads I'm thinking I need to make a short blog that can be referenced before these kinds of discussions commence. It's just sort of awkward to say, "Hey mister atheist, wanna talk to be about this issue... but first, read this form."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"At times you have claimed to not be an apologist but then come to the defense of your faith despite this."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I guess I see a fundamental difference between apologetics and simply talking philosophy. Apologetics are generally outreach oriented, designed to convince others of one's beliefs. I have no desire to convince anyone of my beliefs. I'm just putting them up there and asking for criticism. I defend when I see (imo)invalid criticism, and incorporate when I see (imo)valid criticism.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I hope you've found this discussion fruitful. If you have more questions I encourage you to post another link."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes I have, thank you for your time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/unicock'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;unicock&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If society accepts your behavior, you should do it. If it doesn't, your life won't be happier. That's how people work.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The golden rule is far older than any bible or religion. Evidence shows it is genetic and hard coded in our DNA. It was selected by evolution because it increases your chance of survival in complex societies. It has nothing to do with religion and has been shared by all cultures on the planet throughout all ages.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ok. I agree. I never argued that morality suddenly popped into existence. I believe God hardwired us with it. I also believe that too many of us overwrite that, and without constant reminders we forget it. Hence religion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/pubjames'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;pubjames&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes, that point struck me as well - basically this man has not found answers to some fairly basic questions through his own free thinking, and so falls back on god to provide the answers. Personally I think this guy is only a couple of steps away from being an atheist.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;this man has not found answers to some fairly basic questions through his own free thinking, and so falls back on god to provide the answers."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well my "own free thinking" has lead me to countless philosophers, religious concepts and many thinkers greater than I. I've read plenty of atheist material and haven't found answers that seem to make sense to me. I'm just a guy trying to figure out life, just like you. If you think you have these answers to "fairly basic" questions I'd love to hear them!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/pubjames'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;pubjames&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Why then can you not provide an answer to your sons question, which from an atheist perspective is fairly basic?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Because, as I said, I'm just quoting some guy from history. Sure, that's a fairly basic answer, but in the end I think it's less efficacious. There is no response for simple, sheer selfishness, which we all suffer from time to time. It's not that I &lt;em&gt;can't&lt;/em&gt; provide the atheist perspective. It's that I find it lacking.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p style='text-align: center'&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Tinidril'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Tinidril&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Little Billy: "Why should I not steal, papa?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Papa: "Because God said so."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Little Billy: "How do you know there is a God?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Papa: &lt;em&gt;head explodes&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Little Billy: "What if my life is happier when I ignore society's needs and focus on myself?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Papa: "God wants us all to love each other."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Little Billy: "But God will forgive me anyways wont he?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Papa: &lt;em&gt;head explodes&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You need to stop pretending that you can give your child all the answers. No matter what you do they will ask questions that stump you, and trying to pass off fairy tails as reality is just going to give them more opportunities.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Why not try this?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Papa: Society can't exist without trust and cooperation. Sure, some people can benefit from abusing the system, but is that who you want to be? You will find that nothing you can get through dishonesty will give as much satisfaction as the self respect of knowing that you are a good and honest person.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You need to stop pretending that you can give your child all the answers."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Oh, I'm not pretending that. I'm an agnostic. I value uncertainty more than you know. &lt;a href='http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner%7Ey2009m9d22-The-continuum'&gt;http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner~y2009m9d22-The-continuum&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Society can't exist without trust and cooperation. Sure, some people can benefit from abusing the system, but is that who you want to be?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I absolutely agree that ultimately morality comes from a desire to be moral, not from outside authorities. But the answer to "is that who you want to be?" is heavily influenced by moral inculcation throughout childhood. I see my job as a parent right now as a communicator and motivator to learning to love what is right.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You will find that nothing you can get through dishonesty will give as much satisfaction as the self respect of knowing that you are a good and honest person."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Really? You think this rule holds for all people? I can think of all sorts of people who value the satisfaction of dishonest gain over self sacrifice and honesty.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Tinidril'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Tinidril&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I'm an agnostic.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;Another large contingent belief that most of my worldview is based upon is the idea that a personal God exists."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sorry, you can't have your cake and eat it too. I understand that an agnostic is not an atheist, but neither are they someone who bases their worldview on the idea of a personal God. Even less so when they base it on a single incarnation of that God.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I can think of all sorts of people who value the satisfaction of dishonest gain over self sacrifice and honesty."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes, we call them sociopaths. That is why we have prisons, and congress. If your child is a sociopath then expect that giving them religion may as well be giving them a weapon.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I understand that an agnostic is not an atheist, but neither are they someone who bases their worldview on the idea of a personal God."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well, this is a heavily contested word. I go with this definition I've heard from several atheists:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Gnostic atheist = Someone who believes there is no god, thats it, nothing more &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Agnostic atheist = Someone who has no belief in a god but doesn't believe there can't be one. Nothing more &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Agnostic theist = Someone who believes in a god but does not say there definitely is one. Nothing more &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Gnostic theist = Someone who believes there is a god. Nothing more.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I am agnostic because I don't believe that I can Know if there's a God or not. I am a theist because my reasoning leads me there. I'm a Christian because I find the theories it proffers to be compelling.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Yes, we call them sociopaths."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No, there are plenty of people who lead rotten selfish lives who would never be diagnosed that way. They are just ass holes. The world's full of them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"If your child is a sociopath then expect that giving them religion may as well be giving them a weapon."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's probably true. I sure hope he isn't one.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Tinidril'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Tinidril&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sociopaths are more common than you think. Boiled down, a sociopath is simply someone who lacks empathy due to biological causes.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Other than that, I don't want to get into semantics. I shouldn't have started down that road in the first place.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/bretticon'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;bretticon&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;What do you think of the council of &lt;a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea'&gt;Nicaea&lt;/a&gt;?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;All sorts of things. Why?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/bretticon'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;bretticon&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You claim to be Christian, but it is clear from your posts here that you are not. You have rejected or avoided key components of Christian doctrine in favor of some sort of 'fuzzy' belief. When challenged on your opinions or their contradictions you fall back on statements like "it's not an argument or proof', 'it's what I believe', 'that's too complex'. You might point out that you associate with others of a similar view and consider yourselves Christians but delusions can be found in communities just as much as individuals.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You claim to be Christian, but it is clear from your posts here that you are not."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If it makes you feel more comfortable you don't have to call me a Christian. Feel free to call me an X. "Why I am X: Utility"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You have rejected or avoided key components of Christian doctrine in favor of some sort of 'fuzzy' belief."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I outright reject the word eternal as applied to hell. I think that's the only rejecting I do when it comes to Christianity. Every other doctrine is simply too reliant on words that are fuzzy, hence, my understanding of them is fuzzy. I don't pretend that language can do what it cannot do. That is not a rejection of Christianity, or even its claims. It is part of an overarching epistemology that rejects Knowledge as attainable.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You might point out that you associate with others of a similar view and consider yourselves Christians but delusions can be found in communities just as much as individuals."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't associate with others of a similar view, actually. (I simply don't know anyone who agrees with me!) I attend a very well established, evangelical church that teaches normal Christian doctrine. I simply disagree with their doctrinal positions while agreeing with their outreach to the poor and those who's spiritual needs are met by these Christian ideas. As to delusions... yes, I know they exist everywhere. And I don't see myself as immune to them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/bretticon'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;bretticon&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So you believe in the supernatural account given to the story of Jesus? He walked on water, turned water into wine and all those other such miracles what is fuzzy about those things? You believe that an omnipotent being took on physical form and with full knowing allowed itself to die on the cross to absolve people of the blood debt gained by their ancestors? Far from being fuzzy concepts, I find them to be quite definite. I just find them abhorrent and terrible models for living a moral life.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you believe those events happened, why not accept the miracles of other religions? They claim authority in the same manner. How is your belief not simply &lt;a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading'&gt;special pleading&lt;/a&gt;. You claim that belief in Christianity makes things easier or simpler yet to my mind it complicates human society and too often distracts us from more important tasks that could make our lives and the lives of future generations better. Imagine if instead of every Sunday studying Bronze age fairy tales children were taught math or sent to &lt;a href='http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/kiran_bir_sethi_teaches_kids_to_take_charge.html'&gt;volunteer in their community&lt;/a&gt;. Would that not be a better more useful expenditure of their time? Or if we were to teach them these stories we taught them within their historical context and compared it to all the other religious beliefs that permeated society?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt; "So you believe in the supernatural account given to the story of Jesus?"&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm not certain, but I believe that something amazing happened.  And I accept that they could have happened.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"He walked on water, turned water into wine and all those other such miracles what is fuzzy about those things?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well those are assertions about what a historical person did as a specific time. Those are not fuzzy. One can take several approaches to these claims. One can dismiss them out of hand because miracles don't happen. One can doubt them because they are so miraculous, but keep an open mind. One can accept them because they are a package-deal with their religion. I'm the middle one.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You believe that an omnipotent being took on physical form and with full knowing allowed itself to die on the cross to absolve people of the blood debt gained by their ancestors?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Now THIS is fuzzy. A simple thought experiment will show why. Please define "omnipotent", "physical", "form" "full knowing", "die", "absolve", and "blood debt". I'm sure you could find find definitions, though you would have a plethora of traditions and doctrines to choose from. And once you have done that you will find just as many words in the definitions that need precise definitions if you want a precise outcome. And each of those will... &lt;em&gt;ad infinitum&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I find them to be quite definite."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Then you are being lazy and simply accepting whatever image pops into your head.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I just find them abhorrent and terrible models for living a moral life&lt;/em&gt;."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I agree that the penal substitution model of redemption has a questionable moral basis. That's not the only model or interpretation of Christ's acts. For example: &lt;a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christus_Victor'&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christus_Victor&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"If you believe those events happened, why not accept the miracles of other religions?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well for starters I don't &lt;em&gt;deny&lt;/em&gt; them. As I hold all truth-claims on a continuum of certainty, they simply land lower on my scale than those attributed to Jesus because they don't fit into a universal interpretive framework that I find compelling. I understand that no miracles fit into your interpretive framework, that's why I'm not asking you to believe them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"How is your belief not simply special pleading."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Special pleading (the logical fallacy) applies when one fails to consider the weaknesses of one's claims or gives special rules that exclude similar arguments. I have the same criteria for belief in all miracles, just as you do. Your criteria is "N/A" since miracles can't happen. My criteria is "What kind of historical evidence is there? (Is there controverting evidence?)" and "How reliable are the witnesses or those who recorded them?" and "Does this event contain internal logic?"and "Does such an event comprise a vital component of a coherent framework for interpreting reality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The first two questions as related to the miracles of Jesus are slightly better than most reported miracles in antiquity but certainly don't stand out as obviously true or anything. Any of them could have been redacted for religious or political reasons. And there is certainly evidence that some of them did NOT happen in a literal fashion, since an earthquake that ripped the curtain in the Temple or zombies raising up and walking around Jerusalem would certainly have been recorded in many secular sources.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The third criteria you and I can join in working on. How internally logical is a reported miracle?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The last criteria find their application only within a broader search for Truth. A search that ignores the boundaries of restrictive philosophies like Materialism.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You claim that belief in Christianity makes things easier or simpler"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't think I've claimed that. Perhaps in some ways it is simpler. In others far more complex. Any framework makes demands on your entire life will necessarily be complex since life is complex.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"yet to my mind it complicates human society and too often distracts us from more important tasks that could make our lives and the lives of future generations better."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I won't deny that people can become so focused on the ritual or other aspect of Christianity that they lose the heart of it. I don't think that speaks to the existence of a God or a theory about His work through Jesus.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Imagine if instead of every Sunday studying Bronze age fairy tales children were taught math or sent to volunteer in their community. Would that not be a better more useful expenditure of their time? Or if we were to teach them these stories we taught them within their historical context and compared it to all the other religious beliefs that permeated society?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I've asked these questions myself on my blog. It's obviously a very uncomfortable question for a lot a Christians. I go further and ask why we are spending millions (possibly billions) on buildings and the staff to operate them rather than spending that money helping the poor. This is why I wouldn't really be upset if institutionalized religion was banned.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And while your list of worthwhile things to do in the community is laudable, I should note that many churches do participate in these activities and encourage their congregations to do so. I think they are woefully under-performing though.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As to the "Bronze age fairy tales" I'll let the rhetoric slide and simply say that many texts can be the locus or fulcrum from which values can be learned and imparted. If you find better texts, good for you. I've found immeasurable value in the Bible. And while action (such as feeding the poor) is good, learning is good as well. In Christianeese, we call it discipleship. We put our actions in the context of a larger story. The efficacy of doing so can be seen in the innumerable Christian-based aid organizations.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/bretticon'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;bretticon&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Then you are being lazy and simply accepting whatever image pops into your head."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't think so. Omnipotent seems like a pretty simple concept a being which can do anything it wills. You've rejected the blood sacrifice interpretation which is fair enough so we needn't debate that event.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I hold all truth-claims on a continuum of certainty, they simply land lower on my scale than those attributed to Jesus because they don't fit into a universal interpretive framework that I find compelling."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;"I find compelling" Seems like special pleading to me. But I'm glad you at least acknowledge the validity of logical fallacy.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"The third criteria you and I can join in working on. How internally logical is a reported miracle?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Reported in what sense? I think we both agree that the Bible is rife with contradictory miracles. I'm not interested in trying to rewrite the bible for modern sensibilities. If there is a particular miracle you wish to discuss I might be able to help.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I've found immeasurable value in the Bible. And while action (such as feeding the poor) is good, learning is good as well. In Christianeese, we call&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt; it discipleship."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Numerous people found meaning in Mein Kempf. Learning about it in the wrong context is positively dangerous. Would you agree?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;""I find compelling" Seems like special pleading to me."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Not at all. I'm sure in considering two conflicting scientific theories you can apply identical criteria and find one more compelling.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I'm not interested in trying to rewrite the bible for modern sensibilities."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Haha... Me neither. Jefferson already did that. And I wasn't proposing a collaborative effort, only pointing out that we would work the same way in this aspect.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Numerous people found meaning in Mein Kempf".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well, there again, it's simply a matter determining the quality of the material. I can drink water or I can drink urine. That doesn't mean drinking in general is foolish.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Learning about it in the wrong context is positively dangerous. Would you agree?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you are leading us to the idea that fundamentalism and regarding holy books as perfect vessels leads to violence I would use the same drinking analogy. How many people have fundamentalist Christians killed in the name of their god in the past 100 years? Now how many have fundamentalist Muslims killed? How about Hindu and Buddhist? &lt;a href='http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/slrv.htm'&gt;http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/slrv.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The fact that any text can be leveraged politically is simply a truism. Do I disagree with book-worship? Yes. Should children be taught this danger? Yes. Religious ideas have power. And like anything powerful they can be turned towards good or evil.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/bretticon'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;bretticon&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm not interested in discussing the merits of different religions. There are vocal atheists who have an axe to grind against Muslims (such as Hitchens) I'm not one of them. That problem is more then just a religious one but also one of illiteracy. &lt;a href='http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/01152010/watch2.html'&gt;Greg Mortenson&lt;/a&gt; discussed this recently. But I think we can both agree that depending on how fine you want to define a faith the stats can miss a lot of important info.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Not at all. I'm sure in considering two conflicting scientific theories you can apply identical criteria and find one more compelling."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't think that's how science works. A theory is tested rigorously and independently by multiple people. If it it fails to be verified it isn't less compelling. It's invalid. Scientists might like a particular theory but they don't pick the ones they like they pick the ones that match the model.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Note you didn't say "Christianity is more compelling than other religions" You said "I find compelling" as in it's a personal choice. You used this personal feeling to exempt the same standards of proof you hold to other miraculous claims. Objectivity doesn't require you to be a materialist but once you claim a special case for yourself I would submit to you that you're engaging in a form of solipsism.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt; "I don't think that's how science works".&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Science works in fits and starts. Models gain acceptance while holes in those models await more data. It's often a linear process with simultaneously competing models. The fact that one or another model eventually wins out does not change the fact that there are times -often very long ones- where consensus in a given field is split on which model to accept. It is during those periods where a scientist must use their best judgment to determine which model is more compelling.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm not a scientist, but I read a lot of scientific articles and literature. So if my understanding is wrong, feel free to correct me. But my claim is simply this: In a situation without all pertinent data, one can objectively apply identical criteria to competing claims without falling into the logical fallacy of special pleading. I also note that I'm sure I'm not perfect at this process, but it is my goal.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You said "I find compelling" as in it's a personal choice."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I believe that all opinions are a mixture of personal choice and unavoidable facts. Facts can be interpreted in many ways. But I do not believe that ultimate Truth is affected by choice.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You used this personal feeling to exempt the same standards of proof you hold to other miraculous claims."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No I don't think so. I think that the miracles reported at any time by anybody can have a consistent critical analysis applied to them. I &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt; care more if that analysis shows favorably for the ones that fall within my belief system. I think this is an unavoidable human weakness. But I also care more for Truth than for my belief system. Not at all times in all ways, but it is fundamental to my personality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Objectivity doesn't require you to be a materialist but once you claim a special case for yourself I would submit to you that you're engaging in a form of solipsism."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well I wouldn't be here talking to you all if I wanted to wrap myself in the fuzzy scarf of my comfortable ideas, now would I?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/bretticon'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;bretticon&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt; "I'm not a scientist, but I read a lot of scientific articles and literature. So if my understanding is wrong, feel free to correct me."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Sigh... you're repeating yourself.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"But my claim is simply this: In a situation without all pertinent data, one can objectively apply identical criteria to competing claims without falling into the logical fallacy of special pleading."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Without all the necessary data we don't have enough information to apply the 'necessary criteria' correctly. We must withhold judgment. If we make an exception for particular data sets that we like we are being intellectually dishonest and engaging in special pleading by asking for an exemption.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Allow me to rephrase the part of your argument that I find so odious and poorly worked out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;ol&gt;&lt;li&gt;All religions claim to be true&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Not all religions are equal(ly true)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;I seek the truth above all else&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Practicing my religion is useful to me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Because I seek the truth and because it is useful to me my religion is more true than other religions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;&lt;p&gt;5 does not follow from 4. You might assert that you don't claim 5 because 'I'm not trying to convince anyone, I just want to get some criticism'. But by declaring the truth of your religion as true above all others without any other reasons you are de facto making that very claim.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Sigh... you're repeating yourself."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Right. And I'll repeat myself again to inform you that I'm having concurrent conversations with half a dozen people right now. I'm afraid I don't have the intellectual faculties or the time to ensure that I don't ever repeat myself.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Without all the necessary data we don't have enough information to apply the 'necessary criteria' correctly. We must withhold judgment. If we make an exception for particular data sets that we like we are being intellectually dishonest and engaging in special pleading by asking for an exemption."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think you may suffer from a certain kind of romanticized view of how science works. I suggest you read some Feyerabend &lt;a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Feyerabend'&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Feyerabend&lt;/a&gt; or Kuhn, or at least get familiar with the basis of their critiques.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The problem with our analogy between a scientific model and a philosophical one is that one cannot simply wait around for unanswerable questions to be answered. In the mean time we are compelled to do so, as most action and thought is predicated on their answers. I'm sure you understand that an atheist's thoughts and actions are full of implicit assumptions that cannot be proved or disproved in this life. That the theist has &lt;em&gt;more&lt;/em&gt; implicit assumptions than the atheist is not debatable. It is simply a value judgment as to weather this 'risk' is worth it. How one interprets a "life well lived" or "brave in the face of Truth" or "Healthy for society" are all interwoven into that judgment call. Here there certainly is a corollary to scientific innovation. Leaps in the advancement of science generally come with sparks of intuition, imagination, juxtaposition. All attributes that can be applied to philosophical and religious exploration. If one's life is a grand experiment, we must admit that the results won't be in before we die. To shut down the experimental impulse based on an assumption about the outcome just seems to me like poor sportsmanship to me. This is what I contend atheism does. It is the most timid of philosophies. The most conservative. It demands that all it's framework be safe and solid, and thus eschews that transcendent nature of the human soul that wants to question and act on intuition despite the risks. The irony to me is that the determination as to how safe and solid the framework is is left to the consensus of a small, select group, insulated from the messy world of imagination by a brick wall of materialistic assumptions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well, that's my take anyway.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Allow me to rephrase the part of your argument that I find so odious and poorly worked out. 1. All religions claim to be true 2. Not all religions are equal(ly true) 3. I seek the truth above all else 4. Practicing my religion is useful to me. 5. Because I seek the truth and because it is useful to me my religion is more true than other religions."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Thank you for this. It's always refreshing and challenging to see one's arguments arranged by another.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"5 does not follow from 4."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Agreed!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You might assert that you don't claim 5 because 'I'm not trying to convince anyone, I just want to get some criticism'. But by declaring the truth of your religion as true above all others without any other reasons you are de facto making that very claim."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Again, I choose my words carefully because I don't want to be read this way. First of all, I &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt; provide other reasons for my belief besides utility. Note that the article I originally posted had a "4" in it. I do have a minimal education regarding the great world religions and recognize the similarities and differences among them. I have also examined apologetic work from many of them. They all have different character, and significantly, different emphases on how literal or important their doctrine is.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Secondly, while I believe that my religion is True, and others are less True, this belief is based on what I've repeatedly acknowledged to be a mind that is unsuited for the task of making such an determination. I have only one life (that I know of) and cannot change my heritage and the religion I was raised in. If one believes that there is buried treasure, and it has an equal chance to be anywhere in the world, there is no reason to not start digging in one's own backyard.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And finally, my understanding is that if there is a God, it is not a Christian or Muslim or Hindu or Greek God. It is God. My allegiance is not to Christianity. My allegiance is to this concept, this Being, if such a One exists. If this God revealed Himself most fully in another religion I really wouldn't care. I don't care about my particular religious institution's doctrine or rituals if they are not representing the Truth of this asserted Being. (if such Truth exists.) If God raised up the Buddha to speak some aspect of Truth concerning Him that's fine. I'm not bothered by that possibility.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But I think you might be making a mistake if you see all religious claims to miracles as equal or equally emphasized. Or even equally believed. They are certainly very different when it comes to witnesses or the lack thereof and how close the original writings are to the purported events.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/bretticon'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;bretticon&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Leaps in the advancement of science generally come with sparks of intuition, imagination, juxtaposition. All attributes that can be applied to philosophical and religious exploration. If one's life is a grand experiment, we must admit that the results won't be in before we die."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Seems to me you have the romantic vision of science. I find science to be quite boring but useful, which is why I did not pursue it as a career choice. Science to my understanding is mostly mind breaking tedium, heavy math and a lot of failure before finding something which sticks. No theory in science is fully certain but it takes more then amateur speculation by laymen to prove science wrong.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"To shut down the experimental impulse based on an assumption about the outcome just seems to me like poor sportsmanship to me."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Belief in God seems to shut this down more then non-belief. To put the phrase God did it, undermines every bit of hard work scientists put into explaining natural occurances by implying causality through intention.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"The irony to me is that the determination as to how safe and solid the framework is is left to the consensus of a small, select group, insulated from the messy world of imagination by a brick wall of materialistic assumptions."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I wonder if you'd actually say that to a scientist. Would you say that to Niel de Grasse Tyson, or Steven Hawking? I'd say they have a lot more imagination then your petty 'god did it'.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Secondly, while I believe that my religion is True, and others are less True, this belief is based on what I've repeatedly acknowledged to be a mind that is unsuited for the task of making such an determination. I have only one life (that I know of) and cannot change my heritage and the religion I was raised in."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You've pretty much admitted you don't have the mental capacity to think about this in any other way then through you're own religious viewpoint. That you don't feel any remorse precludes us from having anymore discussion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You're happy in your ignorance I shan't waste my time any longer.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt; "I find science to be quite boring but useful,"&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We have two problems here. We are both non-scientists debating the nature of a field we don't inhabit. The second problem is that I'm talking big-picture, you pointing out the day-to-day.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"No theory in science is fully certain but it takes more then amateur speculation by laymen to prove science wrong."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I agree, and I've not attempted to do so. My only approach to the world of science is through the unguarded back door of philosophical assumptions. Scientists tend to find philosophy unimportant.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"To put the phrase God did it, undermines every bit of hard work scientists put into explaining natural occurances by implying causality through intention."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well I hope you're not accusing &lt;em&gt;me&lt;/em&gt; of saying this. I'm all for the eviction of the gods-of-the-gap.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I wonder if you'd actually say that to a scientist."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I wouldn't accuse a creative, imaginative scientist of not being so. I am speaking of the field as a whole. This is my impression based on reading and conversing with them. Of course there are exceptions, just as there are truly altruistic politicians and unimaginative artists.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You've pretty much admitted you don't have the mental capacity to think about this in any other way then through you're own religious viewpoint."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I've said that my cultural bias is an inevitable obstacle to truly getting into another's shoes and fully understanding their ideas. If you think this is not an issue for you I'd say you either haven't thought about it much or are delusional. (I'm guessing the former.)&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"That you don't feel any remorse precludes us from having anymore discussion."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I feel no more remorse over my non-super powers than I do over my height or eye color. A accept reality as it comes and seek to make the best out of it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"You're happy in your ignorance I shan't waste my time any longer."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ignorance of what, exactly? Or are you merely using the word as most do as a substitute for stupidity? What fact or set of facts can you present which would prove your interpretive framework is superior?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/bretticon'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;bretticon&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As I said, I believe you to be a troll and your comments to be &lt;a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question'&gt;merely begging the question&lt;/a&gt; Feel free to accuse me of doing the same thing. This conversation bores me.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='color:blue; font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt; text-decoration:underline'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Ok. Well, thanks for your time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/unicock'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;unicock&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This conversation stumps me:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Little Billy: "What if my life is happier when I ignore society's needs and focus on myself?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;Papa: &lt;/em&gt;head explodes"&lt;em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Is it really that hard to explain why society's needs correlates with your own?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Papa: Otherwise, you wouldn't be accepted by the rest of society. If you steal from a class mate, either he or your teacher will punish you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;How hard is that? Why do you feel your statement becomes more relevant if you invoke a fictional character almost nobody else would call "truth"?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Because no matter what justification you add, the response: "What if my life is happier when I ignore society's needs and focus on myself?" always trumps it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Let me be clear that I'm not saying that atheists can't be good people who follow the Golden Rule. I'll quote myself from above:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;"I'm not claiming that one can not follow the GR if one is and atheist. I'm saying that founding the GR in a transcendent, ontologically real foundation provides a kind of safety net that can save you when your feelings or willpower fail you. I am certain that there are many morally superior atheists out there."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/spitz'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;spitz&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The issue isn't whether atheists can be good people or not. It's that you've created an artificial solution to the dilemma presented.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The simplest argument against "what if I ignore society's needs and focus on myself" is to show the foolhardyness of that statement. You cannot focus on yourself without focusing on society unless you're a hermit. You cannot fill your gas tank without paying the gas vendor; you cannot eat if people across the world do not gather food and then deliver it to the market and by doing so your support the continued existence of the market; you cannot argue on reddit without strangers creating computers and then providing the networks that you access afterwards and by doing so you support the continued existence of the internet; you cannot receive a paycheck without performing a service and then depend on someone to pay you, and the justice system to support you if they don't and a portion of that is removed by the government to fund its programs. And if you do overstep your bounds and put yourself over other people in a way that is harmful or illegal, you risk the full force of society will swoop in to ensure that you cannot do it again."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You can scale that down for children.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;More to the point, when I was younger I thought the idea of god's authority was stupid, and had no problem disagreeing with god's supposed laws. It's very easy as god is shown to be in support of slavery, genocide and witchcraft: rules for owning slaves are in the old testament, Noah's ark is told in children's books, and Jesus was an exorcist. Keep in mind that like many people I grew up learning about slavery in the US, the holocaust, and the Salem Witch trials as three examples of unconscionable moral behavior so it was mystifying seeing adults fall over themselves to rationalize it instead of just calling it what it was and acknowledging that what their religion taught was ridiculous or morally wrong.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You've created a false dilemma really. People have the ability to ignore any point you try to make, and no argument defeats a response of "I don't care." With children, I think it's a more of a question of what you can teach them to care about while you have the opportunity. If it's something that doesn't exist in the sky, then they risk becoming like the adults I bumped into as a child who felt that imaginary thing was worth defending above all else.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"The simplest argument against "what if I ignore society's needs and focus on myself" is to show the foolhardyness of that statement."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The societal infrastructure continues to function if I as a individual choose to rage against the machine. This cause/effect scenario you painted does not pan out.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"People have the ability to ignore any point you try to make, and no argument defeats a response of "I don't care.""&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That's true.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"With children, I think it's a more of a question of what you can teach them to care about while you have the opportunity."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes. I articulated this in some other response on here. It's getting a child to care that is the real challenge. A goal that I think my Christian tradition supplies good tools for meeting.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/spitz'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;spitz&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"The societal infrastructure continues to function if I as a individual choose to rage against the machine. This cause/effect scenario you painted does not pan out."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The point is that someone who says they will just focus on themselves typically doesn't understand what that means; depending on other people and supporting them in order for continued dependence is implicit in how they are even capable of focusing on themselves in the first place. If you can't understand that it's probably why you can't teach the lesson.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a name='c0isahd'/&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well perhaps I'm a lost cause. Can you rephrase that? Are you saying that one who is selfish needs a functioning infrastructure in order to parasitically use it? And what lesson are you alluding to?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/spitz'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;spitz&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I already rephrased it but I'll try one more time for you. Anyone who thinks it's in their interest to ignore society and focus on themselves doesn't realize that they are so utterly dependent on other people that what they're proposing is nearly impossible, and that they aren't likely to find the few ways of achieving it to be what they imagined. There is no "I don't care I'll do it anyways" here... or well, there can be, but it will likely only reveal that they don't actually understand what they're really saying, and the lesson is what helps them gain that understanding.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Oh, ok. Thank you. That's much clearer.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"what they're proposing is nearly impossible"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I just don't see how you believe this though. People do it all the time to varying degrees. But regardless, morality is not about doing what is inevitable, is it? It's about making choices. Your conclusion seems to be that all the choices you and I consider immoral will lead to less happiness for the one doing it. (the basis for the morality tale) I haven't noticed that in the real world in all cases.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/spitz'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;spitz&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That wasn't my point at all, it was just that someone who reveals that they don't understand something should have it explained to them.  I think because this is tied to the topic of religion you're feeling an urgency to compare it to "turning to god" as a final solution when it's a separate issue. Like the adults I knew growing up who were more interested in making excuses for the absurdities of their religion instead of just stepping back and saying "this is absurd!"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I think because this is tied to the topic of religion you're feeling an urgency to compare it to "turning to god" as a final solution when it's a separate issue."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Hmmm. Possibly a sublimated urge. But I don't think so. Because I view all of reality, including the machinations of the human mind and any tools it develops as purposeful, I don't have any problem applying 'secular' tools to problems such as morality. If the moral problem can be solved without explicitly religious tools that's fine by me. I don't rely on explicitly religious tools for my physical health or for my profession as a game artist.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Like the adults I knew growing up who were more interested in making excuses for the absurdities of their religion instead of just stepping back and saying "this is absurd!""&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;While their religion &lt;em&gt;may&lt;/em&gt; have been absurd, you must remember that people live by systems, not by individual ideas in a piecemeal fashion. My experience is that through political and organizational accretion, every religion will pick up ideas that are absurd. But that does not invalidate whatever core principals of Truth they may have initially grasped.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/spitz'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;spitz&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt; "But that does not invalidate whatever core principals of Truth they may have initially grasped."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Right. Does capitalizing "truth" have some kind of special meaning? The problem is that religion is incapable of simply sticking with the decent principles it has associated with it. For instance, Jesus preached humility and charity, which are fine. However he was also an exorcist, apocalyptic, and credited with magic healing powers, and there is an inability for religious people to keep the good principles in the form of "be humble and charitable" and instead insist on carrying the nonsense about magic powers, spiritual beings, the end of the world and final judgment. The Old Testament has the ten commandments which contains some purely religious rules but also simple concepts like "don't kill" ... which don't really need to be taught, but are not bad. However it also contains teachings about how rapists can marry their victims and plenty of stories where god in detail tells people to kill and why, when he isn't doing it himself; the story of Noah's Ark is lovingly taught to children which is extremely creepy when you consider that in the US 60% of the people telling that story think it really happened. And weirdly, while people are readily able to rationalize why that kind of stuff is in there, very few are able to say "this is terrible, whoever wrote it was an idiot, let's get rid of it all and just keep the simple stuff like 'do not kill' ".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Does capitalizing "truth" have some kind of special meaning?"&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For me it does. I use it to differentiate universal Truth (The collection of all facts rightly interpreted) from our opinions about what is true. Truth with a capitol T is, I believe, inaccessible to the human mind in this life. We mind find bits and pieces of it, (In which case we have right belief) but since we don't have the whole puzzle it's impossible to Know Truth.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"The problem is that religion is incapable of simply sticking with the decent principles it has associated with it."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well let's not conflate "religion" (A set of philosophical ideas for interpreting life and values) from institutions that seek to instantiate and propagate those ideas. And then there are individual religious believers. And then there are the very real differences between religious systems. All this to say that your statement is too simplistic. It also presumes that the basic moral imperatives are the important aspects of religious thought. This may or may not be true. It's certainly the easiest path to take towards synthesizing the religions into one homogeneous entity. But I don't personally think that is the basic function of religious thought.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"However he was also an exorcist, apocalyptic, and credited with magic healing powers, and there is an inability for religious people to keep the good principles in the form of "be humble and charitable" and instead insist on carrying the nonsense about magic powers, spiritual beings, the end of the world and final judgment."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes, this stuff is only important if it's True.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"the ten commandments which contains some purely religious rules but also simple concepts like "don't kill" ... which don't really need to be taught,"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Don't need to be taught?! Says the guy in a first-world nation with a strong central government. The fact that you think this basic moral norm is a norm is due to thousands of years of repetition.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"However it also contains teachings about how rapists can marry their victims and plenty of stories where god in detail tells people to kill and why, when he isn't doing it himself"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes. I don't agree with these teachings, though outside of the societal context in my comfortable high-tech world I have to admit I'm quite out of my element making such a claim.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;""this is terrible, whoever wrote it was an idiot, let's get rid of it all and just keep the simple stuff like 'do not kill' "."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well I think myth serves important roles in our lives and I'm not about to say this or that myth may not be based on Truth. I believe that God made every human mortal. The fact that He decides when and how we die is of little consequence in the shadow of that idea. He is responsible for every human death. This is only a problem if there is no compensatory mechanism in the next life, if such a life exists.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/ep0k'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;ep0k&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Faith is not religious lingo for trust. The definition of faith is a sincerely held belief that does not require justification and may in fact ignore evidence to the contrary. This is exactly the kind of faith you have when you talk about your religion for the rest of the page.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You say&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"One approach to religion that I want to avoid at all costs is choosing a religion because it makes me happy, wealthy, healthy, well-connected, etc."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But then make recourse to its utility in your life as a motivation for being a Christian. This is why I'm calling you out on holding "Truth" up as some kind of ideal. Where's the "Truth" in Christianity? What do you mean by "Truth"? Is it different from "facts"?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Faith is not religious lingo for trust."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I understand there are dictionaries that disagree with me. My point is that whatever that definition is... I don't &lt;em&gt;want&lt;/em&gt; that kind of "faith".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"This is exactly the kind of faith you have when you talk about your religion for the rest of the page."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;When I come across "evidence to the contrary" I change what I believe. I therefore lack that kind of "faith". That is why my beliefs have diverged from mainstream evangelical Christianity. I found a lot of evidence to the contrary.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"But then make recourse to its utility in your life as a motivation for being a Christian."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I thought I made it clear here: "&lt;em&gt;Of course there are very few actions that have singular motivations, and I can't claim to have excised all of these less-than-admirable motives from my religious impulses. But I think that if one is striving for Truth above all else, these things must be distant secondary motives, otherwise Truth can be obfuscated.&lt;/em&gt;"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;What I'm saying is that I am a human with needs and mixed motivations. I'm imperfect. I'm flawed. But I have an ideal. I'm aiming for that... striving for Truth above all else. Utility is one of several reasons that I'm a Christian. Utility provides some small amount of evidence that something is true. Not always, or in every context. But perhaps in this one. That's why I'm exploring it. That's why I'm here among these atheists in the mist. I'm saying, "Hey, look at how this idea works for me. What do you think?" And I'm carefully examining their responses and conversing with them. Maybe utility is no evidence at all in this case. Maybe it is. I figure if I bounce my ideas off a range of perspectives I have the best chance of finding Truth.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Where's the "Truth" in Christianity?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don't think this is the place for Christian apologetics. I simply don't have passion for it. I will simply say that I find a convincing theory for everything in the ideas that Christianity points to, however vague, utilizing whatever amount of metaphor.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"What do you mean by "Truth"? Is it different from "facts"?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Here's my definition of Truth... you can tell me if you disagree: Truth is the complete collection of all facts, correctly interpreted.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So... there are facts. Such as the age of the earth or the name of the capitol of France. Are those things True? I think they are a part of Truth, but alone, no, they are only facts. But such distinctions are only necessary when philosophizing, not in every day speech. I you asked me if Paris was the capitol of France I would say that was true.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So as Truth relates to Christianity... Due to the hazy nature of language, I can't point to a particular doctrine and say "X is True." I can say, "I believe X because it is part of a system that creates a compelling interpretation of the world and our place in it." Doesn't flow off the tongue as nicely, does it?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/ep0k'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;ep0k&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I've read your entire article and you treat religion and science as non-overlapping magisteria, which invalidates&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"When I come across "evidence to the contrary" I change what I believe." &lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Because you've made it clear you think that science and rationalism represent a different path to this amorphous "Truth" than religion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;For example, there is no reliable evidence that Jesus ever existed or that a man like him performed the kind of miracles in the New Testament, yet you call yourself a Christian. That's a clear example of science and rationalism overlapping with religion.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;When religion makes claims about this world that can be tested, it always fails.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt; "you treat religion and science as non-overlapping magisterial"&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well I don't consider them non-overlapping at all. The spheres of religion and science have historically been almost indistinguishable until the last couple hundred years or so. And what I call God is informed by all the god-of-the-gaps that science has eliminated.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"you've made it clear you think that science and rationalism represent a different path to this amorphous "Truth" than religion."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm not sure how you get this from me. I think all human inquiry holds the potential for finding Truth. Laboratories are great for finding facts. Facts are wonderful for composing theories, but I'm sure you understand that theories require philosophical propositions which occur in classrooms, studies, and yes, theological places. Some theological inquiry actively opposes some facts, others accept them and incorporate them. I am of the later group.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"there is no reliable evidence that Jesus ever existed"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Every mainstream scholar (most of which are secular) of Biblical studies agree that obviously Jesus existed. By your use of the word 'magisteria' I assumed you &lt;em&gt;weren't&lt;/em&gt; one of those atheist who just watches movies like The God Who Wasn't There and Zeitgeist and presumes all the "facts" presented therein were actually facts.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If you believe anything about history in order to be consistent you have to believe that Jesus existed.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"or that a man like him performed the kind of miracles in the New Testament"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You one who is advocating separating the magisteria. My position is not inconsistent because I don't make the presupposition that all that exists must be apprehended by our physical senses or our tools. Of course I don't "Know" that Jesus did anything. Of course it's possible that everything in the gospels are redacted political propaganda. However, it does not require a rejection of rational thought or science to believe that miracles can happen or that Jesus was in some sense God. It simply requires a synthesis of various modes of thought and inquiry.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"When religion makes claims about this world that can be tested, it always fails."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Quite a sweeping statement there. I'm assuming you are an adherent of the modern materialist myth of progressing science and receding religion. Both occupying territory that must be occupied by one or the other. Besides being based on historic cherry-picking and suffering from terrible two-dimensionality, the myth can only apply to religion that is based on god-of-the-gaps, or name-it-and-claim it style religion. I find those forms of religious thinking as flawed as you do, and celebrate their reduction with you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/ep0k'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;ep0k&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In the first paragraph of your article you say, among other things,&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"So I'm ok with not having crystal clear Truth in a religion simply because religion deals with things that science can't touch."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That is the definition of non-overlapping magisteria. You're arguing that science and religion address different realms of knowledge.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Are you really surprised that biblical scholars with a confirmation bias find evidence that isn't there? Don't appeal to someone else's authority, show us some of this "evidence".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Look at the biblical depiction of the universe outside the earth. It's geocentric, full of water, and created especially for us. This is one of many examples of blatant falsehoods showing a book cobbled together from still older mythologies and edited by people who had an understanding of the world and the universe that perfectly reflects the time periods the various books were written.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"That is the definition of non-overlapping magisteria. You're arguing that science and religion address different realms of knowledge."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Oh, ok, I see what you're saying. I thought you were claiming that my position was that scientific research cannot inform religious concepts, which it clearly can. This is my stance on the place of Science within the magisteria - or spheres - of human thought and endeavor: Science is our tool for finding facts. But it can never speak to values, which are necessary for arranging and interpreting said facts. (Science can define 'alive' and 'dead' but cannot determine which is "better".) But facts can and do influence our values. So there &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; overlap, but not in an epistemological way. What we learn from facts is distinct from what we learn by philosophizing about values.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;What you are insinuating is that I am proposing a set of facts that is not assessable by scientific means. Perhaps this is where language fails us the most. A proposition such as "There is a God" is not a fact in the sense that 'water contains oxygen' is a fact. Both assertions require intellectual tools to ascertain. One can be demonstrated with experiments that convince almost everyone. The other is a philosophical building block that composes a large number of interpretive frameworks. Take that building block away and the amount of viable frameworks with which to interpret the universe are severely limited. There is no scientific method for testing or reproducing or falsifying "there is a God". In that sense, we are dealing with separate magisteria. However, once one proposes something more specific, such as, "God is 30 feet tall and lives on Mt. Olympus." suddenly the spheres overlap and there is room for science to test and falsify the statement. Also with statements like: "God will make you rich and healthy if you do X."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;What I wish to communicate is that there is intellectually honest input that the sciences can and should have on philosophical and religious thought. And there is intellectually dishonest input. For instance, when a neuroscientist says they have discovered the part of the brain that stimulates religious experience, therefore religious experience is a strictly physical phenomena, therefore no God exists, this is dishonest due to it's circularity. Correlation is mislabeled as causation when materialism is presumed. In this particular case, applying physical stimulus can reproduce an existential state that is described as "religious". And psychological tools and many drugs can be applied to reproduce those feelings. This does not mean that other forces we do not perceive can also activate that part of the brain. Or that what the participants describe as "religious" even is so. And none of that has any technical bearing on whether or not a God created the universe. This is the kind of intellectual dishonesty I see in atheists books and articles all the time. There is usually sublimated disdain for philosophy (other than materialism) even though every value-judgment that is utilized in their arguments is predicated on the circular logic of materialist &lt;em&gt;a priori&lt;/em&gt;. I have no problem with atheist philosophizing. I &lt;em&gt;do&lt;/em&gt; have a problem when they pretend they are not doing so when making broad philosophical assertions via their interpretation of scientific research and facts.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Are you really surprised that biblical scholars with a confirmation bias find evidence that isn't there?"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You must not be very familiar with the broad world of biblical scholarship. The vast majority love nothing more than proving that this or that event, person, or claim could never have happened.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Don't appeal to someone else's authority, show us some of this "evidence"."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;You want be to become an archeologist or a biblical scholar? If so, I should expect you to become a biologist and astronomer before you cite any of your authorities.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Look at the biblical depiction of the universe outside the earth. It's geocentric, full of water, and created especially for us."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes, I never claimed otherwise. I don't attribute divine authorship to the Bible.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"This is one of many examples of blatant falsehoods"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No. This is the example of a poetic myth. Myth is not "true" or "false" like a map or an instruction manual. It's only the fundamentalist and the atheist that demand this fictional character for the Bible that clearly does not fit it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/pubjames'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;pubjames&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes, he implies he chose Christianity because of "the Truth" but doesn't actually say what "the Truth" is, nor does he say how he say how he came to the conclusion that Christianity was more "the Truth" compared to other religions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Personally I think this guy is only a step or two away from becoming an athiest. He obviously thinks about his religion a lot, and evalutes it, but there are still some fundamental things he hasn't worked out yet which are preventing him from making the final step. The dialog with his daughter shows that one of the things he hasn't worked out yet is how you can follow the Golden Rule in ethics without being told to by a god.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule_%28ethics%29'&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Rule_%28ethics%29&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;he implies he chose Christianity because of "the Truth" but doesn't actually say what "the Truth" is, nor does he say how he say how he came to the conclusion that Christianity was more "the Truth" compared to other religions."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As the number 4 in the title suggests, this is not a single all-encompassing apologetic work. As to what "the Truth" is... how the hell should I know?! That's what we're all trying to figure out, right?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Personally I think this guy is only a step or two away from becoming an athiest."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I've heard this many times. I guess it's based on the assumption that if one starts deeply questioning beliefs they must inexorably lead to atheism. This is true for some people. Not for all. Probably not even for most. IMO&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"how you can follow the Golden Rule in ethics without being told to by a god."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No no... I'm not claiming that one can not follow the GR if one is and atheist. I'm saying that founding the GR in a transcendent, ontologically real foundation provides a kind of safety net that can save you when your feelings or willpower fail you. I am certain that there are many morally superior atheists out there.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Tinidril'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Tinidril&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt; "I guess it's based on the assumption that if one starts deeply questioning beliefs they must inexorably lead to atheism. This is true for some people. Not for all."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I would say it is true for the vast majority. But most people have a hard time distinguishing a genuine questioning of their beliefs from a search to justify their beliefs.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is indeed a slippery dilemma. Tell me: as an atheist, how are you sure that your atheism is the result of a genuine questioning rather than a search to justify what you want to be true?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Tinidril'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Tinidril&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I didn't start out as an atheist, in fact I have a degree in Catholic Theology. When I say "most people" I most definitely include myself. For years I fooled myself into thinking that I was willing to question my faith, and it turned out I was wrong. It took me many years to really start challenging myself.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If the history of human knowledge tells us anything, it is that if you go out looking for evidence to prove something you already believe is true that you are guaranteed to find it. The only proven path to real knowledge is to actively look for things that defy what you already believe, allowing you to strip away the garbage. When you take that approach with Christianity, it isn't long before there is nothing left standing.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So do you believe it's imperative to change from one thing into another to be show that your search was genuine? How do you know you didn't just have a deep-seated sublimated wish that there was no God, but due to your religious momentum found it hard to discard the time and effort you went into cultivating your religious mind?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"if you go out looking for evidence to prove something you already believe is true that you are guaranteed to find it."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yeah, specifically in philosophic and religious spheres. I'm not a brilliant man, but I can see how easy it is to justify a lot of positions with cleaver wordplay.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"The only proven path to real knowledge is to actively look for things that defy what you already believe, allowing you to strip away the garbage."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;That is certainly my impulse. I've only been doing that for about 3 years now. So maybe your prophecy will be correct.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"When you take that approach with Christianity, it isn't long before there is nothing left standing".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'll bet this has a lot to do with which Christianity you are talking about. As a scholar, I'm sure you're aware of the thousands of varieties that have grown since Christ. I know as I've studied my views have changed quite a bit, from conservative, inerrantist, evangelical to a Universalist agnostic. But I don't know if the trajectory you foresee is inevitable because I was so derailed by the epistemological dilemma raised by the radical skeptics. I don't see a way out of their logic and into atheism.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Tinidril'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Tinidril&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"So do you believe it's imperative to change from one thing into another to be show that your search was genuine?"&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No, I didn't say that. I do think that intellectual honesty is a skill that has to be learned though, so I would have a hard time believing someone who said that they got everything they learned right the first time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I was so derailed by the epistemological dilemma raised by the radical skeptics. I don't see a way out of their logic and into atheism."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I guess you will have to be more specific. I have no idea what this means.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;intellectual honesty is a skill that has to be learned"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I whole-heartedly agree with this. I'm sure it's a skill I have not mastered.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;"I &lt;em&gt;guess you will have to be more specific. I have no idea what this means."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I mean the "earth giants" that Plato railed against have a pretty air-tight case against our ability to Know anything for certain. The ramifications for that I've talked about in various articles such as here:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner%7Ey2009m8d25-Systematic-skepticism'&gt;http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner~y2009m8d25-Systematic-skepticism&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;here:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner%7Ey2009m9d2-Out-on-a-limb'&gt;http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner~y2009m9d2-Out-on-a-limb&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;and here:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner%7Ey2009m9d22-The-continuum'&gt;http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner~y2009m9d22-The-continuum&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p style='text-align: center'&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/ep0k'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;ep0k&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The author was doing alright until he invoked truth as his motivation for his faith, considering that faith is what you fall back on when you can't justify your belief in any other way.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Round and round we go...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I (the author) understand "faith" to be religious lingo for "trust". I use the words interchangeably. Trust/faith is not what you fall back on when you can't justify your belief. It is built through repeated experience or testing. As I am only human, and my time is limited, it's very likely that many things I trust are not actually trustworthy. This could be the case with my religious convictions. But that in no way diminishes my motivation as the search for Truth being at the root of them.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Tinidril'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Tinidril&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Trust in what? Based on what? Faith is not the same as trust, and you are just playing word games.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;When you trust something, it is because you judge it to be trustworthy. You can base your assessment on reason, or you can base it on wishful thinking.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I understand that there are those who avoid cognitive dissonance by falling back on "faith" when evidence seems to contradict what they want to be true. I don't want to do that, and I reject that as a proper definition for faith. I know it's the definition that atheists like the most because it's easy to make fun of. This is not word games, it's defining motivation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As to what my trust is based on, as with all sufficiently complex ideas there is a Gestalt web of "things". The experiences I've had in my life find a satisfying synthesis when viewed through the framework of Christianity. My interpretation could be wrong, I don't deny that. But what I deny is that I forgo reason when place my trust in the ideas of Christianity.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"When you trust something, it is because you judge it to be trustworthy. You can base your assessment on reason, or you can base it on wishful thinking."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I agree that this is the ideal, but it is far from true. I'm sure you've known people who put their trust in an individual that was untrustworthy simply because they were infatuated with that person or wished they were some way when they really weren't. My ex-wife's parents still struggle with this even though she has been on hard drugs for the past 7 years. They &lt;em&gt;wish&lt;/em&gt; she was better, so when she calls for money, and gives them her stories of rehab and moving down to live with them they buy it. Their trust is misplaced.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;One can also trust a politician who is lying, a preacher who is wrong, a parent who is abusive, etc. But I think what you are saying is that one &lt;em&gt;ought not&lt;/em&gt; base your assessment on wishful thinking if one is seeking Truth. And I agree with that. That is why I reject the "faith" that is based on desire rather than Truth. Of course this gets into very muddy waters once you have to figure out how to separate your desires from your methodologies, what you are willing to consider, how far you are willing to research a claim, etc. I certainly don't have any evidence that atheists do a better job of this than others.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm not trying to imply that I'm mr. right, mr. logic, mr. reason, and nothing but the facts can sway me. I mean we all believe what we want to believe. &lt;a href='http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner%7Ey2009m10d21-Why-Im-a-Christian-2-I-want-to-believe'&gt;http://www.examiner.com/x-19272-Seattle-Faith--Agnosticism-Examiner~y2009m10d21-Why-Im-a-Christian-2-I-want-to-believe&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Tinidril'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Tinidril&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt; "I'm sure you've known people who put their trust in an individual that was untrustworthy simply because they were infatuated with that person or wished they were some way when they really weren't."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Is this something that you suggest people should do? If not, then I think you understand my point exactly, and just need to apply it consistently.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I mean we all believe what we want to believe."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Besides being false, this is a cop-out and moral cowardice. We all believe that all sorts of things are true that we wish weren't. I wish an earthquake didn't just hit Haiti, but I believe it did. We should all be working to identify our irrational beliefs and expunge them, not throwing up our hands and pretending we have no say in the matter.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt; "I think you understand my point exactly, and just need to apply it consistently."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I agree. I try. I'm sure I fail often. :(&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"Besides being false, this is a cop-out and moral cowardice."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;This is a conclusion I came to after years of careful analysis and contemplation. Could it be false? Sure. I'm not claiming to be brilliant. Is it moral cowardice? I think you may be reading it differently than I intended. I know it would be unusual for anyone to read the link I posted, but maybe this quote from Micheal Shermer (in my article I posted) will help you understand what I mean:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Michael Shermer: &lt;em&gt;"Socially, when I moved from theism to atheism and science as a world view, I guess to be honest: I just liked the people in science and scientists and their books and just… the lifestyle, the way of living. I liked that better than the religious books, the religious people I was hanging out with. Just socially, it just felt more comfortable for me."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Moderator: &lt;em&gt;"So it was a relationship-driven decision?"&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Michael Shermer: &lt;em&gt;"Not solely… but the intellectual stuff and all that is part of it but if you're going to be honest: it's not just reasoning your way into a position. In reality I think most of us arrive at most of our beliefs for non-rational reasons. And then we justify them with these reasons after the fact."&lt;/em&gt;&lt;br /&gt;			&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I wish an earthquake didn't just hit Haiti, but I believe it did."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I'm not talking about physical world facts when I say people just believe what they want to. I'm talking about systems of interpreting the world. Some systems take more facts into account than others. Some exclude important facts. Some include important facts but interpret them wrong. (Such as Pat Robertson's interpretation of the Haitian earthquake.) I'm not claiming that MY particular interpretive framework is THE CORRECT one. In fact, I'm quite sure it's flawed in many ways due to my natural human limitations such as my lame inability to time travel or retain all information perfectly or read minds, etc.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"We should all be working to identify our irrational beliefs and expunge them"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I totally agree! But I'll bet we have different definitions of "irrational".&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"not throwing up our hands and pretending we have no say in the matter."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I've spent about 3 years now in heavy, heavy study of every end of the philosophical spectrum attempting to find a cohesive theory of everything. I'm spending countless hours talking to people of all belief systems holding my statements to the harshest scrutiny. I've been called a retard, evil, stupid, douche bag and many other names on this forum alone. But I keep coming back because I care about Truth more than my own comfort. So if one criticism you have of me does &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; stick, it's this one.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/Tinidril'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;Tinidril&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I actually did read your linked article, I just disagree with it. I would go so far as to say that we all have a tendency to believe what we want to believe, but I would include that as just one of many natural tendencies that can and ought to be overridden by our intellect. We also have a tendency for out-group hostility, but I don't think that is a valid justification for anything either.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I'm not talking about physical world facts"&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Physical world facts are what you are stuck with. The extent to which you can know anything about God is dependent on God interacting with the physical world. If you aren't talking about physical world facts then you are talking about nothings.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I've spent about 3 years now in heavy, heavy study of every end of the philosophical spectrum attempting to find a cohesive theory of everything."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think you may have been looking too closely. Forest for the trees and all that. If you aren't starting from an empirical standpoint, deeper and deeper study will just pull you further and further off course.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"I've been called a retard, evil, stupid, douche bag and many other names on this forum alone."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Well that is just kind of sad. Please know that I don't share any of those opinions of you.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"So if one criticism you have of me does not stick, it's this one."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;It wasn't me who levied that criticism. It was you who said "I mean we all believe what we want to believe." If you include yourself in that we (being the only person you have the right to include) then all the rest is just justification of a world view that you have already decided to follow.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href='http://www.reddit.com/user/JoshForeman'&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;JoshForeman&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;span style='font-family:Times New Roman; font-size:12pt'&gt;&lt;br /&gt;				&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"If you aren't talking about physical world facts then you are talking about nothings."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;World views are not nothings. They are products of human imagination that powerfully impact the way we live.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"If you aren't starting from an empirical standpoint, deeper and deeper study will just pull you further and further off course."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And how can you possible Know that?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"It was you who said "I mean we all believe what we want to believe.""&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yes. And I'm standing by that as a valid universal statement that applies to all people to some degree. I clarified -because you brought up a "real world" fact about an earthquake- that the kind of belief I'm referring to is not belief or disbelief in specific facts, but beliefs that certain worldviews are the correct one. As you just admonished me: "&lt;em&gt;If you aren't starting from an empirical standpoint...&lt;/em&gt;" My contention is that you &lt;em&gt;want&lt;/em&gt; the physical world to be the limits of reality. Perhaps not 100%, but enough so that your mind sought out arguments and authorities that backed you up. And personally, I &lt;em&gt;want&lt;/em&gt; there to be a loving God that gives us all purpose.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;"then all the rest is just justification of a world view that you have already decided to follow."&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Exactly. I may be projecting my faulty and weak personal psychology onto others, but I've seen evidence that this isn't the case. (That Shermer quote is a case in point.) I agree, that like out-group hostility, this is condition that ought to be actively subdued. And I'm sure that some are better at it than others. What I object to is a person from any position claiming that if any person does master this faulty instinct, they will inevitably end up in their camp. I've seen this from Christians: "If atheists just really sat down and &lt;em&gt;thought&lt;/em&gt; about life, they'd realize how wrong they are." And the exact same statement from atheists. I think this idea is intrinsically arrogant, as it supposes that the one making it has access to every bit of relevant information and holds the key to properly interpreting it. This is a state that no human can possibly have. Hell, we can't even prove we exist! How does anyone get off saying that &lt;em&gt;they&lt;/em&gt; Know this or that world view is perfect?&lt;br
